[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

as we discussed in the other thread they can't maintain defcon 3 indefinitely. they don't have the industry/ship yards/repair slips, to do the maintenance.

they will be worried about sneak attacks, of course, and def con 3 for a while, 6 months to a year is completely understandable but it will not be forever. the new stations will have permanent sidewalls but maintenance on them is different to impellers, esp mil grade impellers, i expect. plus the stations will make the spares etc, which the ships can't.

the sharks hypering in was noted and an effort to track was made, but being non-impeller ships the search failed. it was decided right after the strike that ANY hyper trace would be investigated and at much higher level of force then used to be. squadron of modern DD/CLs rather then a few older DDs probably but that was not spelled out, I don't think.

minor spoiler below




at the end of UH elizabeth and pritchard agree (though mainly pritchard) that with the visible threat dealt with, both will have to reduce naval spending significantly.


new ships will likely be built but I suspect the number of new SD(P), will be no more then 50% of what they might have been. they need to get apollo out to all of the RMN wall of battle but they will do it much slower.

probably be a big upsurge in smaller platforms, from DD to BC, which is something the RMN has been struggling with since mid first war when they needed every SD or SD(P) they could get. but with silesa and the quadrant they need lighter ships for patrol. possibly for general patrol in ex OFS regions as well

Jancek did push the Roland, Sag and Nike programs but not as much as he could have done, I mean he ordered 1 Nike!, you can't test a class with one ship!

but the RMN now has lots of combat data for the mk 16 armed classes and i'll be interested to see how that changes the new construction.

Dauntless wrote:as we discussed in the other thread they can't maintain defcon 3 indefinitely. they don't have the industry/ship yards/repair slips, to do the maintenance.

they will be worried about sneak attacks, of course, and def con 3 for a while, 6 months to a year is completely understandable but it will not be forever. the new stations will have permanent sidewalls but maintenance on them is different to impellers, esp mil grade impellers, i expect. plus the stations will make the spares etc, which the ships can't.

the sharks hypering in was noted and an effort to track was made, but being non-impeller ships the search failed. it was decided right after the strike that ANY hyper trace would be investigated and at much higher level of force then used to be. squadron of modern DD/CLs rather then a few older DDs probably but that was not spelled out, I don't think.

minor spoiler below




at the end of UH elizabeth and pritchard agree (though mainly pritchard) that with the visible threat dealt with, both will have to reduce naval spending significantly.


new ships will likely be built but I suspect the number of new SD(P), will be no more then 50% of what they might have been. they need to get apollo out to all of the RMN wall of battle but they will do it much slower.

probably be a big upsurge in smaller platforms, from DD to BC, which is something the RMN has been struggling with since mid first war when they needed every SD or SD(P) they could get. but with silesa and the quadrant they need lighter ships for patrol. possibly for general patrol in ex OFS regions as well

Jancek did push the Roland, Sag and Nike programs but not as much as he could have done, I mean he ordered 1 Nike!, you can't test a class with one ship!

but the RMN now has lots of combat data for the mk 16 armed classes and i'll be interested to see how that changes the new construction.

Gracias, Dauntless. That's certainly a minor spoiler. And I'd already consumed it in another thread. Which reminds me of a particular notion.

I think another term should be coined. "Build down" and "Draw down."

::helpless shrug for help::

To distinguish between lowering the available number of warships of the navy, as opposed to phasing out or decreasing the numbers of the larger SDs, for the most part, in favor of the smaller ships of the wall.

Personally, I think this is a long-term mistake. It may serve the specific needs of the GA now, but if the MA returns with a large devastating fleet with problematic stealth, the GA may find itself in need of heavier units able to survive more hits.

Almost forgot. Yes, I agree trying to maintain DEFCON 3 is virtually impossible, even before Oyster Bay.

Matter of fact, as I brought up in another post upstream, I'd sure like to know the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of naval ships pertaining to burnout. This is usually given in operating hours in today's lingo. Could be given in months applied to a naval vessel in the Honorverse. But I wouldn't be surprised if a "24/7" DEFCON 3 state of readiness would activate even a new ship's maintenance light in a year. IOW, I don't know how they've sustained it this long.

Do remember, that whisper of MAlign tech, probably won't be heard when launched from further out.

not building as many as you have been is not quite the same as a build down, i don't think. it is just accepting that the need is no longer as high as it was.

as I said they will replace the pre- Apollo SD(P), and a Apollo capable is worth at least 2 pre Apollo SD(p) which alone was worth 5, i think, non pod SDs, either via outright new ships or upgrading the current ones to Apollo level.

RFC has always tried to stay away from exact numbers but say they were commissioning 50 SD(P) a year before they lost the stations, and now the fighting is over they cut that to 25. that is still a significant chunk given that less then 50 systems galaxy wide have any, and of them less then 20 have more then a squadron. is it less then it was? yes but unfortunately when all you have point at are vague shadows, even ones who did as much damage as they did it is not possible to keep spending the way you were when you actively losing SDs every couple of weeks.

the kingdom is now an empire and will have a need for bigger fleets. probably a home fleet for each of the 3 territories, old SKM, Quadrant and Silesa. so they aren't cancelling all pod SD construction. just cutting back and building up the smaller units that have been lower priority for most of the last 4 decades

Elizabeth will make sure the RMN R&D continues to push the limits and no-one is forgetting that the Malign is still out their but the war for now has shifted.

with no exact location to attack it has become a cold war, the war of spies really. as our history shows us, a cold war does not mean no new ships, or tech. it just means that thing aren't being done at breakneck speed.

the cost of the Yawtta strike will not be forgotten soon, not by QE3 or the RMN. much like 70 years on and despite some people attempts the Holocaust is not forgotten and fingers crossed won't be anytime soon.

it wasn't the tech that was tracked, it was the Hyper arrival, but fingers crossed they will have some ideas for tracking spider ships by the time the next series starts. yes they might be able to transition further out to try and avoid detection but there are limits on how far out you can arrive and still be able to do the mission. the arrays are likely being upgraded against that very idea as well.

but even with standard tech that is a risk. Scotty Tremine did something similar during Buttercup, where several LAC groups were dropped off well out of hyper detection range and came in ballistic. there is no such thing as perfect security. you do what you can, but there comes a point when you simply have to accept you've done what can be done and move on.

Possible weaponry coming out of the Bolthole collaboration and Ganymede information:

A new Apollo pod with a Mk23-E missile controlling a larger brood of Mk16-G missiles.

A smaller Keyhole 2 array that can be fitted to BCs.

Better missile acceleration and stealth.

Dauntless wrote:not building as many as you have been is not quite the same as a build down, i don't think. it is just accepting that the need is no longer as high as it was.

as I said they will replace the pre- Apollo SD(P), and a Apollo capable is worth at least 2 pre Apollo SD(p) which alone was worth 5, i think, non pod SDs, either via outright new ships or upgrading the current ones to Apollo level.

RFC has always tried to stay away from exact numbers but say they were commissioning 50 SD(P) a year before they lost the stations, and now the fighting is over they cut that to 25. that is still a significant chunk given that less then 50 systems galaxy wide have any, and of them less then 20 have more then a squadron. is it less then it was? yes but unfortunately when all you have point at are vague shadows, even ones who did as much damage as they did it is not possible to keep spending the way you were when you actively losing SDs every couple of weeks.

the kingdom is now an empire and will have a need for bigger fleets. probably a home fleet for each of the 3 territories, old SKM, Quadrant and Silesa. so they aren't cancelling all pod SD construction. just cutting back and building up the smaller units that have been lower priority for most of the last 4 decades

Elizabeth will make sure the RMN R&D continues to push the limits and no-one is forgetting that the Malign is still out their but the war for now has shifted.

with no exact location to attack it has become a cold war, the war of spies really. as our history shows us, a cold war does not mean no new ships, or tech. it just means that thing aren't being done at breakneck speed.

the cost of the Yawtta strike will not be forgotten soon, not by QE3 or the RMN. much like 70 years on and despite some people attempts the Holocaust is not forgotten and fingers crossed won't be anytime soon.

it wasn't the tech that was tracked, it was the Hyper arrival, but fingers crossed they will have some ideas for tracking spider ships by the time the next series starts. yes they might be able to transition further out to try and avoid detection but there are limits on how far out you can arrive and still be able to do the mission. the arrays are likely being upgraded against that very idea as well.

but even with standard tech that is a risk. Scotty Tremine did something similar during Buttercup, where several LAC groups were dropped off well out of hyper detection range and came in ballistic. there is no such thing as perfect security. you do what you can, but there comes a point when you simply have to accept you've done what can be done and move on.

Thanks again, and a very well laid out post. It certainly all makes sense to me. In time of peace, there's no need to strain the coffers trying to keep up with the Peeps-es. Besides, how much longer could the war between the Peeps and the Manties have lasted before the bank was broken anyway?

However, I still think whatever agreement is reached between Beth and Eloise should include provisions for even parity of warships. Why does the whole thing remind me of the Cold War and the agreement to draw down nuclear weapons between the two Superpowers?

As I've stated upstream. Failure on Manticore's part to do so would be equivalent to criminal negligence.

I still think the MA should target Pritchart and Theisman. If successful, the alliance is dead in one fell swoop.

One things for certain, if the Peeps flip on Beth again, she's gonna need therapy.

Will the trading landscape drastically change for the RMN now that FF won't be fleecing its members? Suddenly there'll be a lot more revenue to be made, and deals to he had, since League members will be working with more revenue. Can the League even continue to afford to be so bloated - instead of shedding some systems if it can no longer fleece its members? Could they be headed for financial hardships if they're not successful at restructuring?

What on Earth is going to become of FF, piracy suppression on steroids? UH where are you in hyper?!

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:not building as many as you have been is not quite the same as a build down, i don't think. it is just accepting that the need is no longer as high as it was.

as I said they will replace the pre- Apollo SD(P), and a Apollo capable is worth at least 2 pre Apollo SD(p) which alone was worth 5, i think, non pod SDs, either via outright new ships or upgrading the current ones to Apollo level.

RFC has always tried to stay away from exact numbers but say they were commissioning 50 SD(P) a year before they lost the stations, and now the fighting is over they cut that to 25. that is still a significant chunk given that less then 50 systems galaxy wide have any, and of them less then 20 have more then a squadron. is it less then it was? yes but unfortunately when all you have point at are vague shadows, even ones who did as much damage as they did it is not possible to keep spending the way you were when you actively losing SDs every couple of weeks.

the kingdom is now an empire and will have a need for bigger fleets. probably a home fleet for each of the 3 territories, old SKM, Quadrant and Silesa. so they aren't cancelling all pod SD construction. just cutting back and building up the smaller units that have been lower priority for most of the last 4 decades

Elizabeth will make sure the RMN R&D continues to push the limits and no-one is forgetting that the Malign is still out their but the war for now has shifted.

with no exact location to attack it has become a cold war, the war of spies really. as our history shows us, a cold war does not mean no new ships, or tech. it just means that thing aren't being done at breakneck speed.

the cost of the Yawtta strike will not be forgotten soon, not by QE3 or the RMN. much like 70 years on and despite some people attempts the Holocaust is not forgotten and fingers crossed won't be anytime soon.

it wasn't the tech that was tracked, it was the Hyper arrival, but fingers crossed they will have some ideas for tracking spider ships by the time the next series starts. yes they might be able to transition further out to try and avoid detection but there are limits on how far out you can arrive and still be able to do the mission. the arrays are likely being upgraded against that very idea as well.

but even with standard tech that is a risk. Scotty Tremine did something similar during Buttercup, where several LAC groups were dropped off well out of hyper detection range and came in ballistic. there is no such thing as perfect security. you do what you can, but there comes a point when you simply have to accept you've done what can be done and move on.

Thanks again, and a very well laid out post. It certainly all makes sense to me. In time of peace, there's no need to strain the coffers trying to keep up with the Peeps-es. Besides, how much longer could the war between the Peeps and the Manties have lasted before the bank was broken anyway?

However, I still think whatever agreement is reached between Beth and Eloise should include provisions for even parity of warships. Why does the whole thing remind me of the Cold War and the agreement to draw down nuclear weapons between the two Superpowers?

As I've stated upstream. Failure on Manticore's part to do so would be equivalent to criminal negligence.

I still think the MA should target Pritchart and Theisman. If successful, the alliance is dead in one fell swoop.

One things for certain, if the Peeps flip on Beth again, she's gonna need therapy.

Okay, since spoilers have already crept into the thread (I think the thread name should probably be sufficient warning for people who don't like them), allow me to point out a view things. I'm sort of free associating here, so my points probably aren't going to be in any special order.

(1) At the moment, the Grand Alliance has the only modern wall of battle in the galaxy. It has literally hundreds of SD(P)s and scores of CLACs. The only bigger navy in the galaxy has been pretty completely destroyed. Frontier Fleet still exists, but the biggest and nastiest ships it has are totally obsolete battlecruisers. The Battle Fleet Reserve is suitable for nothing but scrap. The same is true of every active Solarian ship-of-the-wall as of the end of the war.

(2) The galaxy just got a whole lot less predictable. Sort of like happens when the Warsaw Pact disintegrated and the Soviet Union turned into the Russian Federation, the balance of power which had been a fundamental part of interstellar diplomatic and commercial calculations has gone belly up. The Solarian League is still the biggest kid on the block; but the Solarian League no longer controls the Protectorates, and it won't be controlling the Protectorates again. It's going to start shedding systems in the Shell, too, I assure you. So there are going to be whole bunch is of independent star systems, each with its own set of political and economic objectives, and each worried about people trying to prey upon it militarily and/or looking around for someone it can prey upon. In essence, the entire Fringe has just become Silesia, in a lot of respects.

(3) I don't recall anyone saying that bonded cargo carriers didn't forfeit their bonds when Manticore called them home under Lacoön. In fact, they did, which is one reason they took such an economic hit. So although there are going to be a lot of disgruntled Solarian ship owners, none of them who were dealing with bonded carriers (which is pretty much everyone when you're talking about cargoes in the millions of tons) is currently uncompensated. If cargoes simply weren't picked up, then there are penalties built into the contracts, and those may be a case for litigation after the war if the Manticoran carrier is going to argue that it was an act of war before the war was actively declared. It's going to be awful hard to get any interstellar admiralty court to say that it wasn't during "time of war" given the Solarian League's unilateral military actions, however.

(4) The Star Empire of Manticore most certainly is not going to start hiking the Junction transit fees. First, that would be really, really bad from a political perspective. By leaving the fee schedules where they were prewar for Solarian shipping, they demonstrate a restraint that any thinking Solarian knows perfectly well OFS wouldn't have demonstrated if it had succeeded in taking over the Junction. Second, the revenue stream being generated by the Junction, especially with Talbott added to the equation and the high probability of mutual defense/usage treaties with several of the newly independent star systems who happen to have wormhole termini in their stellar backyards, is enormous. It always has been, which is the main reason the Star Empire's taxes were so low. They do have a lot of debt to pay down, especially after the damages of Oyster Bay, however they've already more than paid their way with their allies in the form of the new tech they've made available. I am sure that Elizabeth, who has very good diplomatic smarts when she isn't hating on a star nation that, oh, murdered her father, her uncle, her cousin, her prime minister, etc., is well aware of the need to not "sponge off" Haven, and of her obligations to Grayson, and she will most definitely meet them.

(5) Given that there is no longer any conceivable credible military threat (aside from the possibility of "stealth attacks") that the Grand Alliance — or, for that matter, the Star Empire or Haven, acting in isolation — couldn't swat like a bug, and that there is going to be a lot of proto-Silesia space out there, nobody in the universe understands better than Manticore that the force mix it was forced to build in a war for its existence is not the one that it's going to need in the postwar period. It's going to need more cruising vessels, it's going to need more light squadrons, etc., and it's going to need a lot less wallers. So that's the fleet mix it's going to reach for. That doesn't mean it won't have a wall of battle; it simply means that the wall of battle it will have will be ample to deal with any known threat while the emphasis on new construction is going to be focused on actual post war needs, not postwar paranoid "wish lists." If anyone thinks that Manticoran intelligence organizations are going to go to sleep and not keep a real, real, real close eye on potential emerging threats, I have a bridge I want to sell you. And if anyone thinks that queen Elizabeth (or, for that matter, if anything happened to her, Crown prince Roger) isn't going to be thinking in terms of safety margins against known or emerging threats (you do remember what King Roger's response to an "emerging threat" was, I trust?), I have some bottomland I want to sell you. Just don't ask me which ocean it's on the bottom of. So, yes, the RMN is going to be "building down" at least in terms of capital ships, but it is most definitely not going to go to sleep at the switch.

(6) Speaking of watching out for emerging threats, I trust that no one thinks that Elizabeth or Eloise Pritchart are going to simply forget about the Alignment? There's no point in building a mammoth fleet that you can't point at your enemy, and the Grand Alliance recognizes that — as Hamish Alexander pointed out to Elizabeth in the immediate aftermath of Oyster Bay — that whatever else the Alignment may be and have, at this time it clearly doesn't have a massive fleet of stealth vessels. If it had had them at the time of Oyster Bay, then Oyster Bay would've been launched in greater strength. If it had them as of Operation Nemesis, it wouldn't have had to count on getting bombs aboard the Beowulf habitats. And I promise that the Four Musketeers are going to go right on looking very hard with all of the support that both Eloise and Elizabeth can provide.

(7) One reason that the RMN and the PRN and the GSN aren't going to be building bunches of new capital ships anytime real soon is that Tom Theisman's "congress of geeks" in Bolthole is going to be busy synthesizing current level Alliance technology with all the goodies honor brought home from Naval Station Ganymede. I believe that one may safely assume that new and much improved iterations of current technology — and possibly even some new departures — will emerge from that. Certainly, the Grand Alliance is expecting there to be changes, which is one reason they're going to be cautious about buying additional current-generation platforms. They've got oodles of legacy platforms; if new stuff becomes available, then they need to be building new platforms optimized to use it. They don't need to have built a bunch of platforms that are poorly suited to the new stuff.

(8) Someone mentioned that the Alignment should be working on assassinating Elizabeth and/or Eloise. Excuse me a moment. D'oh! I assure you, that the Alignment is thinking about it and looking for ways to do it and Palace Security, the Empress's Own, the Protector's Guard, and a whole passel of treecats are looking for ways to prevent it. Unless the Alignment wants to come out into the open with something like a big, nasty bomb — or yet another "stealth fleet" attack — then going to have to work through what you might call "normal" channels, although their nanotech gives them a few abnormal advantages. On the other hand, there are the treecats. And if they do use a big, nasty bomb or another "stealth fleet" attack, then they are going to underline, punctuate, and italicize the fact that there really is an "Alignment" out there, whether the Manties and Havenites have correctly identified it or not. From the Alignment's perspective, this would be A Bad Thing™, and they already had a rather pointed lesson in letting emotional pain dictate strategic decisions in the form of Operation Nemesis.

(9) Apropos Operation Nemesis. Some people have been saying that, in effect, the Grand Alliance did exactly what the Alignment wanted to accomplish. The truth is, however, that it both did and it didn't, with emphasis on the latter. Yes, there are going to be a lot of opportunities in the Fringe and the Shell that can be picked up on by someone like the Renaissance Factor, and that's a good thing from the Alignment's perspective. However, the Solarian League will still be in existence and really 90% or more intact in terms of population and probably 85% intact in terms of economic muscle, which means that the possibility of executing a hostile takeover against the League's fragmented remains is not very high. I'm not saying that the Alignment's objectives have gone totally unmet; I'm saying that what happened wasn't the outcome they really wanted. Please note also that I'm not saying that the outcome they got wasn't one that their models hadn't predicted as at least one possible outcome, so I think you can assume that they have plans in place to proceed from where they are now.

(10) About the notion of "parity" between the Royal Manticoran Navy and the Peoples Navy. People, the RMN already has parity with the RHN. And the RHN is going to be much more drastically downsized than the RMN, proportionately, for a lot of reasons. Including the fact that both Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman recognize that while the RMN has been respected and trusted by the majority of the galaxy for the last two or three centuries, the RHN, as the inheritor of the Peoples Navy has a much less savory reputation. So, like the RMN, the RHN is going to be building ships intended for police service and being very careful not to build up a fleet which is obviously suitable for going a-conquering again, if someone with less of a moral sense than Eloise or Tom winds up in charge of it.

(11) The Star Empire of Manticore and its merchant marine is going to come out of the war against the Solarian League in very good shape. Yes, quite a few of the smaller shipping lines in Manticore will have gone belly up, despite government assistance, in the wake of Operation Lacoön and its fiscal consequences. The lines which survived — and probably quite a lot of new lines, started up with merchantships that can be snapped up cheap — are going to expand like crazy, however. All of the astrogational advantages the Star Kingdom has enjoyed ever since the Junction was opened are still there, and have been in fact multiplied by the additional influence that Manticore has acquired with the other hyper bridges of the galaxy. Manticore doesn't have to raise its transit fees vis-à-vis Solarian or independent shipping in order to enjoy those advantages, either. All it has to do is to discount transit fees for its own shipping and that of its allies and closest trade partners. The result is going to be to once again exert that financial pressure in favor of shipping in Manticore and bottoms because of what it means for your cargo's bottom line. And all of the factors which conspired to make Manticore the Zürich-New York-London on steroids of the Honorverse's financial networks will still be there, as well. Manticore may be way out on the fringe of the explored galaxy, but because of the Junction and the hyper bridges, it is still the logical — indeed, the inevitable — hub of major financial markets, and that is only going to increase with the number of unilateral and multilateral trading relationships/treaties which are going to come Manticore's way with the collapse of the Protectorates. It is probable that Manticore will not again acquire the completely dominating position that it once had in terms of the Solarian carrying trade, but the reason it won't is that the revamped League is going to subsidize its own merchant shipping in order to avoid that outcome. In the long-term, Manticore can probably afford to sit back and simply be patient about that, because eventually — and probably not all that far in the future — the immediate memories of Lacoön will begin to fade, the League's federal government will look for places it can cut spending, and the subsidy program will be wound down with the comfortable conclusion that the League has built up a sufficient backlog freighters to protect it against a similar strategy in the future. At which point, as the merchant marine inevitably continues to grow, Manticore's percentage of the total carrying trade will once again begin expanding vis-à-vis League-flagged carriers.

And I suppose that's enough to go on with for now.

Thanks!

The critical issue in terms of fleet balance is what the SL does. Not in a few years but at 5 and 10 years. The only RMN tech that it seems to me that can’t likely be reproduced by the league in that time is Apollo. And I’m not so sure about that. It’s more a matter of will than ability. So if they decide they need a force of 4000 SD(p) platforms they have the ability to do that. I can see reasons they might not want to something that provocative, but then again...

This of course assumes that among the tens of thousands of people with access to the core tech there isn’t a William Kamples, a Ronald Pelton, a John Walker, a Aldrich Ames, a Christopher Boyce, a Larry Chin, or a Wen Ho Lee.

Essentially the SLN has been sticking its head in that sand about ehat was going on and actively ignoring the r & d capability of the few billion people who are part of the SL. It seems likely that this will change fairly dramatically. Being on the losing side does that.

Thank you for all that great insight!!!

kzt wrote:Thanks!

The critical issue in terms of fleet balance is what the SL does. Not in a few years but at 5 and 10 years. The only RMN tech that it seems to me that can’t likely be reproduced by the league in that time is Apollo. And I’m not so sure about that. It’s more a matter of will than ability. So if they decide they need a force of 4000 SD(p) platforms they have the ability to do that. I can see reasons they might not want to something that provocative, but then again...

This of course assumes that among the tens of thousands of people with access to the core tech there isn’t a William Kamples, a Ronald Pelton, a John Walker, a Aldrich Ames, a Christopher Boyce, a Larry Chin, or a Wen Ho Lee.

Essentially the SLN has been sticking its head in that sand about ehat was going on and actively ignoring the r & d capability of the few billion people who are part of the SL. It seems likely that this will change fairly dramatically. Being on the losing side does that.

A good point, but I think I addressed it above, when

I wrote:If anyone thinks that Manticoran intelligence organizations are going to go to sleep and not keep a real, real, real close eye on potential emerging threats, I have a bridge I want to sell you. And if anyone thinks that queen Elizabeth (or, for that matter, if anything happened to her, Crown prince Roger) isn't going to be thinking in terms of safety margins against known or emerging threats (you do remember what King Roger's response to an "emerging threat" was, I trust?), I have some bottomland I want to sell you. Just don't ask me which ocean it's on the bottom of. So, yes, the RMN is going to be "building down" at least in terms of capital ships, but it is most definitely not going to go to sleep at the switch.

In other words, they are going to be watching the League (especially) like a hawk and will certainly adjust their own building plans and fleet mix if the situation requires it. Can they be positive the SL won't surprise them? No. But SL2.1 will be a much more open society. The folks who were fat, dumb, and happy have by and large been waked up (at least for now) by Operation Nemesis, and when the Mandarins' internal records start coming out at Nurem --- er, the war crimes trials --- there's going to be a lot of revulsion in the Core. Don't forget that most of the League's member systems have perfectly functional self-government and most have pretty stout concepts of individual rights and right and wrong. A lot of the people in those systems are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the Protectorates were basically the Belgian Congo and that they were complicit in the economic and political rape of scores of star systems if only by their silence. It will be totally honest for most of them to say "I didn't know," but the equally fair retort will be "That's because you never looked."

The SL was rotten and corrupt to the core on the federal level, not the "state" level, and those states are going to be controlling the federal government pretty damned carefully for quite some time. Indeed, shame at what they stood by and allowed to happen under the Mandarins will be a very strong motivator to be suspicious as hell of any central government for quite some time to come. Moreover, they are going to realize that one of the things they most need to do that is a free, vigilant, and honest press. Which, ironically, means that the reformed interstellar news bureaus are going to be modeling their new approach on Audrey O'Hanrahan and her fellow "muck rakers" and that it's going to be a right smart length of time before anything like the Mandarins can reemerge on the federal level. And until that happens, fleet budgets and things like that are going to be openly discussed in a free press, which is going to make the GA's ONI's job a lot easier.