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[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:54 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:You have not read it yet?!

Galactic Sapper wrote:Not everyone is in a position to buy the hardcover when it comes out or has the inclination or capability to read it electronically. And of course Weber books tend to take two full years to come out in paperback.

I know in the past I've been in the position where I had to wait until the local library got their copy in. I eventually bought them all anyway, but the price differential does matter to some people.

I was only expressing surprise that TFLYTSNBN had not read it yet. I realize that not everyone can do everything at once, but this is a Spoiler thread.

Not everyone cares that much about spoilers, either. I participated in a couple spoiler threads prior to reading UH myself.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:08 am

TFLYTSNBN

dsrseraphin wrote:
Galactic Sapper wrote:
...

Despite the name change, I don't think Manticore really intends to build an empire - at least not on the scale the Solarian League did. While Manticore may need to temporarily help newly-independent systems get themselves set up, they're more likely to let them go their own way as soon as they are able. If the RMN starts downsizing some in the near future, many of those half-pay officers may well end up as loaners helping newly independent systems set up navies and customs patrols of their own.

...



Weather or not Manitcore intends to be a bona fide Empire is actually irrelevant. Nature, especially the Human settled portion of it, abhors a (power) vacuum!

Politically there has ALWAYS been a dominant polity within a given region of human settlement. Now that the neobarb Manties have exposed the Solly empire as naked, somebody has to step up and be the dominant one.

Don't forget that the MA initiated the whole fracas so that it could be kingpin. The MA now wants to not only be The Empire but wants it over the dead body of Manticore - not the GA, Manticore specifically. So if Manticore is to survive it will have to beat MA to death and when it does it will already be on the back of the Imperial Tiger.

Dominant polities have multiple ways to achieve and hold on to their dominance. Post WWII Pax Americana was achieved by a deliberate pushes in military affairs, economic affairs, and cultural affairs. Pax Britannia was achieved the same way. England made favorable nation treaties at the end of a cannon; America did it by treaty and loans.

My suggestion that the GA encourage the creation of a Junction Network Treaty Organization is for the same reason US & UK fostered the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. There will be jockeying in the Verge and among the splinters of the League, some rogue polities will develop and the MA will be out there brewing trouble. So just like the US & UK found themselves after WWII with a destabilized Europe and a grasping resurgent USSR; the GA finds itself with a destabilized League AND a cold war opponent in the MA; an opponent that has superior tech in some areas, ready made proxies, and a deployed covert action network!

The really interesting thing is NATO achieved its goal without a general war - the USSR is no more; and NATO persist, admitting nations that are over the horizon far from the North Atlantic.

Creating a Junction Network Treaty Organization would play to the implied goal of the Harrington Doctrine, nurturing independent polities that cooperate with each other and with the GA, while reducing the need to empire build by anyone that joins the treaty org. Only fools want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Once the Junction Network Treaty Organization gets set up, it would be advantageous for Manticore to allow 'mission creep' once pirating heats up, by allowing the treaty org to do convoy duty. The resultant benefits to the GA are: not being accused of pushing warships into intra-national or international space; not having to spend money on maintaining the patrols; and it can sell 'export' versions of frigates & destroyers; all the while looking like the benevolent partner that the say they are.

Manticore may not be in the empire building business but it or the GA will be dragooned into it unless it sets up a straw-man to build the empire around. A junction network treaty organization will win 'hearts & minds' better than direct navy patrols or naked economic favoritism. It also simplifies a potentially complex political landscape.

One last thing, as I said the network should start with those junctions that were affected by Lacoon 2, that does not include the junctions in the GA because they were already in 'owned' by GA members and there was no need to take them over.

-David S.



The biggest inducement employed by the United States to build its "Empire" was the Brenton Woods free trade regime. The US purposely offerred free access to its markets to boost the economies of allies at the expense of its own industries and workers in return for military alliance against the Soviet Union. It was an economic arrangement dimetrically oppossed to the classical imperial model.

Weber has not revealed much about Manticore's possible protectionism of domestic markets. I would speculate that given the advantages of the MWJ, Manticore was a major exporter before it got its orbiting manufacturing base blown to Hell. However; Manticore could offer reduced rates on the MWJ and other wormholes under its control to star systems that are not part of the SL.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am

tlb
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Posts: 3960
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Galactic Sapper wrote:...

Despite the name change, I don't think Manticore really intends to build an empire - at least not on the scale the Solarian League did. While Manticore may need to temporarily help newly-independent systems get themselves set up, they're more likely to let them go their own way as soon as they are able. If the RMN starts downsizing some in the near future, many of those half-pay officers may well end up as loaners helping newly independent systems set up navies and customs patrols of their own.

...

dsrseraphin wrote:Whether or not Manitcore intends to be a bona fide Empire is actually irrelevant. Nature, especially the Human settled portion of it, abhors a (power) vacuum!

Politically there has ALWAYS been a dominant polity within a given region of human settlement. Now that the neobarb Manties have exposed the Solly empire as naked, somebody has to step up and be the dominant one.

Don't forget that the MA initiated the whole fracas so that it could be kingpin. The MA now wants to not only be The Empire but wants it over the dead body of Manticore - not the GA, Manticore specifically. So if Manticore is to survive it will have to beat MA to death and when it does it will already be on the back of the Imperial Tiger.

Dominant polities have multiple ways to achieve and hold on to their dominance. Post WWII Pax Americana was achieved by a deliberate pushes in military affairs, economic affairs, and cultural affairs. Pax Britannia was achieved the same way. England made favorable nation treaties at the end of a cannon; America did it by treaty and loans.

My suggestion that the GA encourage the creation of a Junction Network Treaty Organization is for the same reason US & UK fostered the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. There will be jockeying in the Verge and among the splinters of the League, some rogue polities will develop and the MA will be out there brewing trouble. So just like the US & UK found themselves after WWII with a destabilized Europe and a grasping resurgent USSR; the GA finds itself with a destabilized League AND a cold war opponent in the MA; an opponent that has superior tech in some areas, ready made proxies, and a deployed covert action network!

The really interesting thing is NATO achieved its goal without a general war - the USSR is no more; and NATO persist, admitting nations that are over the horizon far from the North Atlantic.

Creating a Junction Network Treaty Organization would play to the implied goal of the Harrington Doctrine, nurturing independent polities that cooperate with each other and with the GA, while reducing the need to empire build by anyone that joins the treaty org. Only fools want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Once the Junction Network Treaty Organization gets set up, it would be advantageous for Manticore to allow 'mission creep' once pirating heats up, by allowing the treaty org to do convoy duty. The resultant benefits to the GA are: not being accused of pushing warships into intra-national or international space; not having to spend money on maintaining the patrols; and it can sell 'export' versions of frigates & destroyers; all the while looking like the benevolent partner that the say they are.

Manticore may not be in the empire building business but it or the GA will be dragooned into it unless it sets up a straw-man to build the empire around. A junction network treaty organization will win 'hearts & minds' better than direct navy patrols or naked economic favoritism. It also simplifies a potentially complex political landscape.

One last thing, as I said the network should start with those junctions that were affected by Lacoon 2, that does not include the junctions in the GA because they were already in 'owned' by GA members and there was no need to take them over.

-David S.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The biggest inducement employed by the United States to build its "Empire" was the Brenton Woods free trade regime. The US purposely offerred free access to its markets to boost the economies of allies at the expense of its own industries and workers in return for military alliance against the Soviet Union. It was an economic arrangement dimetrically oppossed to the classical imperial model.

Weber has not revealed much about Manticore's possible protectionism of domestic markets. I would speculate that given the advantages of the MWJ, Manticore was a major exporter before it got its orbiting manufacturing base blown to Hell. However; Manticore could offer reduced rates on the MWJ and other wormholes under its control to star systems that are not part of the SL.

First the Malign's primary target, aside from breaking up the Solarian League, was Beowulf and not Manticore. Manticore only became a target because the war with Haven (the Malign's preferred opponent for the SL) had made the RMN much too strong.

The primary source of the economic might of the USA was that it had become the world's premiere manufacturing nation, because the war had only increased its capacity without wrecking anything. Later on this meant everyone else had newer and possibly more efficient plants.
Then the Marshall Plan for Europe and similar efforts in Japan served to spread that wealth in a way that tied the recipients closer to the USA. I am sure that trade agreements made those ties tighter.

At the end of UH, Elizabeth is talking about making the GA a permanent entity, similar to a combination of the EU and NATO, with joint citizenship and commonality of weapon systems. That does not mean that the SEM will rule, only that it will be close to the first among equals.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 am

TFLYTSNBN

tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.
I do not understand how people could not accept that there was a malign group out there, because it required that they not think about the Yawata Strike at all. The SLN knew that they did not do it and no one believed that it could be Haven; so "who was responsible" should have been a question that occupied policy makers.

ps. You have not read it yet?!


After engaging I a series of atrocities the SLN deployed a HUGE battle fleet to Manticore with the intent of transforming the Star Kingdom into yet another Protectorate to be raped and pillaged. After getting their asses kicked again, the SLN then proceeds to commit genocidal assaults on Beawulf and other SL systems who wish to exercise their right to secede​. Manticore and Beawulf have a moral right to loot, pillage and burn SL systems into the stone age.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:31 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3960
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

tlb wrote:They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:After engaging in a series of atrocities the SLN deployed a HUGE battle fleet to Manticore with the intent of transforming the Star Kingdom into yet another Protectorate to be raped and pillaged. After getting their asses kicked again, the SLN then proceeds to commit genocidal assaults on Beawulf and other SL systems who wish to exercise their right to secede​. Manticore and Beawulf have a moral right to loot, pillage and burn SL systems into the stone age.

I can not accept that as a moral position: that is eye for eye and tooth for tooth. At least in Hammurabi's code this was decided before some kind of judge. Endless retribution and retaliation means the war never ends.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

TFLYTSNBN

tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.
I do not understand how people could not accept that there was a malign group out there, because it required that they not think about the Yawata Strike at all. The SLN knew that they did not do it and no one believed that it could be Haven; so "who was responsible" should have been a question that occupied policy makers.

ps. You have not read it yet?!


I live a long drive from a bookstore and am not fond of Amazon.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:28 pm

tlb
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Posts: 3960
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

tlb wrote: You have not read it yet?!

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I live a long drive from a bookstore and am not fond of Amazon.

Bummer. If you order it from Baen, is that really Amazon? What about ebooks instead?
At one point I had Barnes & Noble, Borders, Tower Books and Books a Million within an easy drive. Now only Barnes & Noble is close and Books a Million is about 20 miles away; the others have gone under.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:00 pm

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Posts: 524
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I live a long drive from a bookstore and am not fond of Amazon.

You can buy direct from Barnes & Noble's online store or one of the third party sellers selling new copies on ebay.

I'm lucky that I have a b&m B&N store within a couple miles, and only a few blocks from somewhere I go regularly anyway. Unfortunately they don't always stock what I'm looking for.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:46 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

tlb wrote:They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:After engaging in a series of atrocities the SLN deployed a HUGE battle fleet to Manticore with the intent of transforming the Star Kingdom into yet another Protectorate to be raped and pillaged. After getting their asses kicked again, the SLN then proceeds to commit genocidal assaults on Beawulf and other SL systems who wish to exercise their right to secede​. Manticore and Beawulf have a moral right to loot, pillage and burn SL systems into the stone age.

I can not accept that as a moral position: that is eye for eye and tooth for tooth. At least in Hammurabi's code this was decided before some kind of judge. Endless retribution and retaliation means the war never ends.


There is a difference between a moral right and actually doing something. If someone killed my daughter, I might well feel I have the moral right to kill him...or hid daughter. But we do have a justice system.

What happens however when the justice system breaks down?

Honor and her fleet had the right to blow the military installations up. And had Parthian shot been used a lot, there might have been a lot of justification for doing so. Had the SLN fleet actually blown up the installations at Hyacinth, the SL would have had no moral position to object to mass destruction of all their installations without warning.

It didn't happen.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:43 pm

tlb
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Posts: 3960
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

TFLYTSNBN wrote:However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

tlb wrote:They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:After engaging in a series of atrocities the SLN deployed a HUGE battle fleet to Manticore with the intent of transforming the Star Kingdom into yet another Protectorate to be raped and pillaged. After getting their asses kicked again, the SLN then proceeds to commit genocidal assaults on Beawulf and other SL systems who wish to exercise their right to secede​. Manticore and Beawulf have a moral right to loot, pillage and burn SL systems into the stone age.

tlb wrote:I can not accept that as a moral position: that is eye for eye and tooth for tooth. At least in Hammurabi's code this was decided before some kind of judge. Endless retribution and retaliation means the war never ends.

ldwechsler wrote:There is a difference between a moral right and actually doing something. If someone killed my daughter, I might well feel I have the moral right to kill him...or hid daughter. But we do have a justice system.

What happens however when the justice system breaks down?

Honor and her fleet had the right to blow the military installations up. And had Parthian shot been used a lot, there might have been a lot of justification for doing so. Had the SLN fleet actually blown up the installations at Hyacinth, the SL would have had no moral position to object to mass destruction of all their installations without warning.

It didn't happen.

He is not talking about what happened in the Sol system, but instead about looting core planets as a form of reparations that is not specified in the surrender terms. Indeed doing that after the Solar League has done everything needed to cement the armistice.
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