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Disadvantages of Allies

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Disadvantages of Allies
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:28 pm

cthia
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I came across an article around the holidays about the advantages and disadvantages of allies. Are there similar disadvantages of the GA to its participants?

Disadvantage: Bailing Out Allies
When countries form an alliance, it is implied they will support each other, and that often includes post-conflict support. For instance, much of the destruction in World War II took place in France, and the fighting devastated the country. Allied powers, because of their alliance, had an obligation to help France recover -- at great financial cost. Helping a struggling ally often remains a responsibility even during times of no conflict. For example, the United States provides much of the finances and labor behind the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, an alliance between 28 North American and European countries that work cooperatively to keep peace in the North Atlantic region. In a June 2011 speech, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates decried the alliance as one of increasing imbalance because other NATO members didn't contribute enough to operations, he said. Not only does the obligation to support struggling alliance members create financial hardships, but it also can create tension -- as Gates' speech demonstrated.

Disadvantage: Disagreement on Action
Although allies initially join to fight against a common enemy, sometimes tactics or goals change. For example, Israel and the United States are strong allies and American leaders have reaffirmed their solidarity with Israel repeatedly. The countries both need each other, but that doesn't mean leaders always agree. For example, in May 2011, U.S. President Barack Obama pressured Israel to return to 1967-era borders between Israel and Palestine as a way of brokering peace in the region. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu flatly rejected the notion, putting the two allies at odds over an issue that is likely to reemerge repeatedly amid violence in the region. When fundamental disagreements between allies emerge, it can make the relationship uncomfortable or, in the worst-case scenario, end the alliance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by kzt   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 pm

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Well, consider the classic problem of allies. How did the decades long informal and formal alliance between Nazi Germany and the USSR end?
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 pm

cthia
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I readily recall one disadvantage experienced by Grayson during the Manticoran government's High Ridge hiatus. Deception, a lack of trust and uninformed, unrequited policy changes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:40 pm

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Japan was an ally in WW1, and is now. Not so in WW2.
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by Erls   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:06 pm

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Not to get (too far) off topic related to the Honorverse, but...

Per a Reuters article less than 2 weeks ago, less than 40 of 130 current generation German fighters are available for training and combat. The rest are down due to lack of maintenance, lack of spare/replacement parts, or other reasons. This by the way is the 4th biggest economy on the planet (behind Japan, ahead of the U.K.). The U.K., by the way, with an economy roughly 27% smaller in GDP, has around 125 of 145 current generation fighters available at any point in time.

Oh, also.. Germany's current military strength is a bit under 200k personnel. Of course, the country Germany is "most scared" about has less than half of Germany's GDP, yet maintains over 1 million on active duty.

So, to your point... Yes, allies can be a weakness. But, I maintain they are only a weakness if one allows them to be. For example, the United States today could tell the other countries of NATO they can either: A) Get their shit together and invest in a robust military for self defense, or B) Not make the investments. If they refuse to make the investments, the USA will view that as a conscience decision of those countries to ignore their self-defense needs and thus will not support them if they are attacked.

Basically, allies are only a weakness when one party (usually the stronger one) allows the weaker party to not uphold its duties under the terms of the alliance. For decades the USA has done just that - allowed most members of NATO to pass off their national defense to NATO (aka the USA, Canada, the U.K., and France) while spending money elsewhere.
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:19 pm

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cthia wrote:Are there similar disadvantages of the GA to its participants?
Well, the Manties have had to help their allies deal with the damage incurred during the Haven wars. But how much worse off would they have been if the Peeps had been able to take over those systems? In the last months of 1922, they've had to help their GAllies, but that hasn't cost them much (yet).


“There is only one thing worse than fighting with allies, and that is fighting without them.”
-- Winston Churchill
kzt wrote:Well, consider the classic problem of allies. How did the decades long informal and formal alliance between Nazi Germany and the USSR end?
"decades" long? 1933–41?
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by ywing14   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 pm

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Erls wrote:Not to get (too far) off topic related to the Honorverse, but...

Per a Reuters article less than 2 weeks ago, less than 40 of 130 current generation German fighters are available for training and combat. The rest are down due to lack of maintenance, lack of spare/replacement parts, or other reasons. This by the way is the 4th biggest economy on the planet (behind Japan, ahead of the U.K.). The U.K., by the way, with an economy roughly 27% smaller in GDP, has around 125 of 145 current generation fighters available at any point in time.

Oh, also.. Germany's current military strength is a bit under 200k personnel. Of course, the country Germany is "most scared" about has less than half of Germany's GDP, yet maintains over 1 million on active duty.

So, to your point... Yes, allies can be a weakness. But, I maintain they are only a weakness if one allows them to be. For example, the United States today could tell the other countries of NATO they can either: A) Get their shit together and invest in a robust military for self defense, or B) Not make the investments. If they refuse to make the investments, the USA will view that as a conscience decision of those countries to ignore their self-defense needs and thus will not support them if they are attacked.

Basically, allies are only a weakness when one party (usually the stronger one) allows the weaker party to not uphold its duties under the terms of the alliance. For decades the USA has done just that - allowed most members of NATO to pass off their national defense to NATO (aka the USA, Canada, the U.K., and France) while spending money elsewhere.


I heard they've only got enough munitions to arm 10 of them.
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by kzt   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 pm

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Bill Woods wrote: "decades" long? 1933–41?

Started in the 20s. That’s part of how the Germans dealt with the versilles treat, by going to Russia. Maybe only 17 or 18 years.
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by kzt   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:11 pm

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ywing14 wrote:I heard they've only got enough munitions to arm 10 of them.

When Hillary turned Libya into an al-qeda stronghold it was apparently provoked by the French and UK running out of aircraft munitions in two weeks of fighting a 2nd rate 3rd world opponent.
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Re: Disadvantages of Allies
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:15 am

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Still awaiting UH of course, so I don't know how much damage Beowulf's infrastructure received as a result of the love triangle. Will Manticore assist in rebuilding or can Beowulf handle it on their own?

The entire GA is involved in rebuilding Manticore's lost infrastructure in orbit. Will there be a bump in the road in the future regarding the plans for the Verge and Silesia?

One disadvantage I assume experienced by Haven is that it has to carry the alliance on its own war fighting infrastructure. Bolthole is expected to ramp up production and cover the entire arses of the GA. Instead of idling down its production as one does post war and spending the monies elsewhere.

I can imagine the detractors in Eloise's Republic who were against joining the GA from the beginning are screaming to break up the party now that the imminent danger is past. No more danger from the Gorilla, then there's no more need to remain in the GA. Leaving Haven free to see about its own internal troubles and strife. Signing on as allies always has hidden costs over the horizon.

"Woe, we never signed on for this!"

I don't know if the "Gold Rush" for Silesia and the Verge will upset the Andermani's long-term, age-old plan and cause tension. But I can't imagine them starting a war over it. Especially since Manticore and Haven have bandied together. But if war did break out between the Andies and one party in the GA, would the other automatically support it? Would Haven continue to support Manticore against the Andermani?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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