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Mind voice dialects.

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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Treecats will never develop "mind voice" dialects. :twisted:


Can't comment on the swoop, but if you say they have no language would be one fell.


Weird Harold wrote:
di·a·lect
ˈdīəˌlekt/
noun
noun: dialect; plural noun: dialects

a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group.
"this novel is written in the dialect of Trinidad"
synonyms: regional language, local language, local speech, vernacular, patois, idiom;


IF they will never develop dialects, that implies they have no language to start from in developing dialects.


A does not become AB, ⊭ ¬ A

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by Joat42   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:43 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:IF they will never develop dialects, that implies they have no language to start from in developing dialects.

Not true. The concept of language is just a convenient label to slap on the act of exchanging information. Since the exchange of information between cats are AFAIK 100% error free there will be no drift in the meaning of information symbols. There may be new types of symbols invented by cats but since the transmission of the information always is 100% there is never any misunderstandings or misinterpretations.

For a language to have dialects you need a mechanism to introduce errors and a drift in the meaning of the symbols. The cats doesn't have that.

In human communication the amount of information transmitted in a symbol (ie word and/or gesture) is wholly dependent on how well the people communicating know each other. Compare the meaning of the word 'No' between 2 complete strangers and a couple that has been married for 50 years. In the first instance the word is just a negative answer, in the latter it can be a substitute for a 1000 words (as any married person can attest to). The cats communication IMHO is somewhat in the latter category, where a symbol (word) carries with it all the implicit connotations needed to fully comprehend the meaning being transmitted.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by saber964   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:49 pm

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Dialects are also word drift. The treecats are going to invent new words or descriptors for new plant and animal life. Treecats are now living on at least four planets besides Sphinx. The Manticorian Wave Crester might be the Water Floater and the Old Earth Seagull might be the Beach Flyer.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:43 pm

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saber964 wrote:Dialects are also word drift. The treecats are going to invent new words or descriptors for new plant and animal life. Treecats are now living on at least four planets besides Sphinx. The Manticorian Wave Crester might be the Water Floater and the Old Earth Seagull might be the Beach Flyer.


No, they aren't. And Cithia is missing the point, really. Treecats do NOT have a language per se at all; it's why they found the very concept of words so hard to grasp. They exchange complete data packets; a direct conceptualization that bypasses the need for discrete bytes of data. We tend to assume that the only way cognitive processes can work is through semantics-based language. Why should this necessarily be so for a truly telepathic race? I have to give you their conversations in "words" and "language," because that's the only way we can grasp it.

These are aliens, people, and I designed them from the ground up to be aliens where their communication and cognition is concerned. Then I made them furry and adorable and put them into relationships with a handful of humans which are so close and intimate that it seems impossible that they don't have language. But the real problem the 'cats have had all along, the reason it took them so long to actually begin understanding humans at all, is that their entire mode of communication and conscious thought actually uses completely different referents.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:52 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
saber964 wrote:Dialects are also word drift. The treecats are going to invent new words or descriptors for new plant and animal life. Treecats are now living on at least four planets besides Sphinx. The Manticorian Wave Crester might be the Water Floater and the Old Earth Seagull might be the Beach Flyer.


No, they aren't. And Cithia is missing the point, really. Treecats do NOT have a language per se at all; it's why they found the very concept of words so hard to grasp. They exchange complete data packets; a direct conceptualization that bypasses the need for discrete bytes of data. We tend to assume that the only way cognitive processes can work is through semantics-based language. Why should this necessarily be so for a truly telepathic race? I have to give you their conversations in "words" and "language," because that's the only way we can grasp it.

These are aliens, people, and I designed them from the ground up to be aliens where their communication and cognition is concerned. Then I made them furry and adorable and put them into relationships with a handful of humans which are so close and intimate that it seems impossible that they don't have language. But the real problem the 'cats have had all along, the reason it took them so long to actually begin understanding humans at all, is that their entire mode of communication and conscious thought actually uses completely different referents.


I thought that might be it.

Something that might surprise people: human language is based on a small number of indefinable concepts - 65 at last count. By indefinable I mean that they can't be defined in simpler terms; for most of them there have been literally millions of words spilled in highly complex attempts to define, for example, the core meaning of "I".

These concepts appear to be the same in all languages that have been studied in sufficient depth.

NSM home page wrote:The NSM approach is based on evidence that there is a small core of basic, universal meanings, known as semantic primes, which can be expressed by words or other linguistic expressions in all languages. This common core of meaning can be used as a tool for linguistic and cultural analysis: to explain the meanings of complex and culture-specific words and grammatical constructions (using semantic explications), and to articulate culture-specific values and attitudes (using cultural scripts). The theory also provides a semantic foundation for universal grammar and for linguistic typology.


Ref: https://intranet.secure.griffith.edu.au ... talanguage

Surprisingly, analysis of videos of chimpanzee interactions suggests that about 50 of them are common with chimps, which suggests that Chomsky was right(*): language was originally for thought, not for communication.

(*) My admitting that Chomsky was right about anything could well be a sign of the apocalypse.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by CmdrAthenaAprilist   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:01 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
saber964 wrote:Dialects are also word drift. The treecats are going to invent new words or descriptors for new plant and animal life. Treecats are now living on at least four planets besides Sphinx. The Manticorian Wave Crester might be the Water Floater and the Old Earth Seagull might be the Beach Flyer.


No, they aren't. And Cithia is missing the point, really. Treecats do NOT have a language per se at all; it's why they found the very concept of words so hard to grasp. They exchange complete data packets; a direct conceptualization that bypasses the need for discrete bytes of data. We tend to assume that the only way cognitive processes can work is through semantics-based language. Why should this necessarily be so for a truly telepathic race? I have to give you their conversations in "words" and "language," because that's the only way we can grasp it.

These are aliens, people, and I designed them from the ground up to be aliens where their communication and cognition is concerned. Then I made them furry and adorable and put them into relationships with a handful of humans which are so close and intimate that it seems impossible that they don't have language. But the real problem the 'cats have had all along, the reason it took them so long to actually begin understanding humans at all, is that their entire mode of communication and conscious thought actually uses completely different referents.


"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"!
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by Joat42   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:32 pm

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CmdrAthenaAprilist wrote:"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"!

And for a treecat that would make total sense since the whole concept of cooperation against a common foe is included in the communication.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by Annachie   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:59 pm

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Instead of dialect, which is a way of speaking, we should really be talking about a way of thinking or communicating.

Because, while RFC is right about their language etc, I'm not sure that he's really thought through 'Cats growing up on different planets, or even space stations. (Actually, I'm not sure he would until it looks like coming up in a future book)

Case in point, the kittens growing up on Grayson and the concept of unlimited running space/limited running space.

Now it may be that the aparently perfect information transfer that is Treecat communication will counter that. (And at this stage I think this is what RFC is hinting at)
Actually, there's a question. Is it a perfect information transfer or a perfect experience transfer. Or both?

The other thing is that by introducing the 'Cats to the concept of language, that a dialect (Thialect?) Has a higher chance of occuring.
Hell, realistically, with the security Cats and all, they are likely being introduced to the concept of dialect as well.


All that said, I doubt it will ever come up in a book unless RFC decides to expound upon it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:34 pm

runsforcelery
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Annachie wrote:Instead of dialect, which is a way of speaking, we should really be talking about a way of thinking or communicating.

Because, while RFC is right about their language etc, I'm not sure that he's really thought through 'Cats growing up on different planets, or even space stations. (Actually, I'm not sure he would until it looks like coming up in a future book)

Case in point, the kittens growing up on Grayson and the concept of unlimited running space/limited running space.

Now it may be that the aparently perfect information transfer that is Treecat communication will counter that. (And at this stage I think this is what RFC is hinting at)
Actually, there's a question. Is it a perfect information transfer or a perfect experience transfer. Or both?

The other thing is that by introducing the 'Cats to the concept of language, that a dialect (Thialect?) Has a higher chance of occuring.
Hell, realistically, with the security Cats and all, they are likely being introduced to the concept of dialect as well.


All that said, I doubt it will ever come up in a book unless RFC decides to expound upon it.


Looked at another way, every single 'cat speaks with an "accent." A data packet transferred from Nimitz to another 'cart is tagged with a "laughbrightlian" "accent" because it is produced as direct information transfer from a unique being --- Nimitz/Laughs Brightly --- who is the product of unique experiences. Thus the data transmission will be perfect (or as close an approximation as is ever likely to be reached) but will carry his unique "sidebands." This is how memory singers reproduce the actual experiences of 'cats hundreds of years dead. As treecat communities develop in different environments, those sideband elements will diverge more sharply from one another, but that will no more form "dialects" or accents than their individuality already produces. This is also why treecat names change over time; the individual bearing the name has changed and his/her designating "data packet" changes accordingly. In fact, one might say that any 'cat's "full name" consists of a single data transfer which sums up all of the "people" that 'cat has ever been, but that it is the final byte tacked onto the end, the most recent descriptor, which is most important.

BTW, I am not saying that the 'cat mode of communication and cognition is superior to that of humans. It has significant advantages over any human language ever developed, but it has drawbacks, as well. For one thing, it makes abstract thought more difficult or even, in some cases, impossible, which is why I've told you from the beginning that they are not great innovators (and why they so treasure the 'cats, like Samantha, who are innovators. The 'cats may be the galaxies ultimate pragmatists, and they are incredibly quick at spreading innovations, but they are very slow at producing new concepts and ideas. In part, specifically because their communications lack the ambiguity built into even the closest human communication. A treecat literally cannot misunderstand another treecat, although the data packet itself can be shaped by the deliberate omission of critical components. Even that is very difficult for the 'cats, however, which is one of the things which makes (or at least made) Nimitz and his sense of humor so close to unique in Bright Water Clan.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Mind voice dialects.
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:37 pm

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One of these days, I have got to write the story of the memory singer who actually makes the breakthrough into understanding the very concept of language. I warn you, it's a heartbreaker, :cry: but it would put a lot of this into context for you.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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