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The Soul of Haven

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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:07 am

cthia
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Eagleeye wrote:
cthia wrote:
Thanks for dotting the 'i' and crossing the 't.'

Though, did the RMN have enough Apollo missiles to destroy Haven's capital, w/o simultaneously uncovering the Home system's blanket of Apollo coverage? Wouldn't it have had to leave itself bare? Like, well, it did?

Which could have resulted in some sort of a stalemate? Of sorts? Though for the life of me, I cannot figure out how that unlikely but totally possible scenario would have been resolved.


At least they thought so, and because there was no other enemy to be seen at the horizon, they were probably right in this assumption. After all, the situation with the SL at the time Honor was sent to New Paris was not yet at a level you would starting to loose sleep about and Oyster Bay hadn't happened, too - so, the manticoran military industry was at its top level and still rising. They could rightly assume that any missiles Honor had to use (if it came to that contingency) could not only be replaced but additional ones could be added to them, too. So, no stalemate in sight.

That Oyster Bay turned that assumption upside down (and proved once more, that "if you assume something you make an ass out of u and me") is another matter entirely ...


Recall the old excuse that you give someone you're dating when you want to let them down easily? "It's not you, it's me."

Well, it really is me this time. LOL

I keep forgetting about the era before the extinction of the mighty dinosaurs. The space stations. So I didn't make it clear yet again. I was continuing the thought a click or two upstream, comprising the same window just prior to Eloise's visit. I'm assuming Honor would have handled the rekindling of Operation Buttercup as well, since Eighth Fleet was the only fleet armed with Apollo.

But, even in considering the time before Oyster Bay, even then there is still a chance of a stalemate, because a bottleneck had cropped up in the production of Apollo. Eighth Fleet was the only fleet armed until.

Honor could have waited in that case, but at the risk of losing both - the window of opportunity and the initiative, to Beatrice. And if both are sent at the same time and passed each other like thieves in the night. Same scenario. No?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:31 pm

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At the time of MOH, Elizabeth had come off her funk over the Webster assassination and the attempt on Berry and Ruth, partly because of a verbal spanking she got from Honor. By the time Honor and 8th Fleet left for Haven, everone in Manticore was more or less hoping that Honor's mission would bring the war to an end peacefully.

The situation with the League in Talbot did provide incentive to end the war with Haven since Manticore did not want to still be at war with Haven should the situation with the League turn hot.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:28 am

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n7axw wrote:At the time of MOH, Elizabeth had come off her funk over the Webster assassination and the attempt on Berry and Ruth, partly because of a verbal spanking she got from Honor. By the time Honor and 8th Fleet left for Haven, everone in Manticore was more or less hoping that Honor's mission would bring the war to an end peacefully.

The situation with the League in Talbot did provide incentive to end the war with Haven since Manticore did not want to still be at war with Haven should the situation with the League turn hot.

Don

-


Just goes to show how the unexpected can suddenly change things. When Zilwicki and Cachat came back, Prichart used the new infor to change the whole balance of power. In that one act she became a "great leader." Instead of losing a war with huge casualties she became a full partner in a victorious coalition.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 pm

cthia
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How likely is it that Haven's overall education played a part in the fall of the Republic? Or did the fall of the Republic affect their general education? IOW, were they always trailing behind the Manticorans in education?

How long was the Republic out for the count?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:23 pm

cthia
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The Soul of Haven is made up of many gobbled up systems. I wonder what the average makeup of each system's government was before "assimilation." Democratic, Republic? Or other?


Does Haven's Constitution allow for secessions?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by drothgery   » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:41 pm

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cthia wrote:Does Haven's Constitution allow for secessions?
They definitely did not require all systems under PRH control (and not occupied by Manticore and its allies) to join.

The PRH had at its peak over 400 systems under its control, while the New Republic never had more than 150. A lot of the difference were empty except for military bases, but a lot weren't, too.

Whether their constitution allows anyone to leave after agreeing to join is unkown.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am

cthia
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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:Does Haven's Constitution allow for secessions?
They definitely did not require all systems under PRH control (and not occupied by Manticore and its allies) to join.

The PRH had at its peak over 400 systems under its control, while the New Republic never had more than 150. A lot of the difference were empty except for military bases, but a lot weren't, too.

Whether their constitution allows anyone to leave after agreeing to join is unkown.


Thanks drothgery.

I guess I should have phrased that a little differently. It's a no-brainer that neither [Constitution constitution] under Saint-Just would allow secessions. I mean, you can secede, only if you wish to bleed. I would imagine that's the definition of Dictator. But as a Republic in Eloise's hands, does it?

Unlike the League, I can't imagine any government not denying the right under burden of war. No government in its right mind is going to allow a system to secede who's making all of their widgets, wocks and whatnots that are instrumental in building their weapons of mass destruction.

I don't imagine Manticore would have allowed Erewhon to exit at the time they did if they weren't already a free agent.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:08 am

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erewhan was an ally. not a member planet of the SKM. they couldn't have stopped them leaving, well maybe if they had thrown high ridge out, apologised, offered more tech and a shipyard similar to grendlsbane
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:40 am

cthia
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Dauntless wrote:erewhan was an ally. not a member planet of the SKM. they couldn't have stopped them leaving, well maybe if they had thrown high ridge out, apologised, offered more tech and a shipyard similar to grendlsbane


Thanks for correcting my faux pas. I knew Erewhon wasn't a member system. I also didn't think they were a formal ally, but strictly a neutral business entity. The wiki says I was wrong as well. Mea culpa.

However, that brings me back to an original argument that allies agree to some form of a treaty, which usually involves the carrot and stick. Should Erewhon have been able to withdraw from the alliance, without some form of a penalty, simply because a certain asshole stepped on their toes?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:27 pm

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an ally is ally because generally you have simmilar desires/goals.

the war was basically over even if the idiot in charge of SKM refused to make good on it. the reason they were allies had been fixed.

so while their might have been other things SKM could have done for them the idiot made it clear that he though of them the same way the SL thought of SKM.

so war is over and your ally is being a jerk? no reason to stay.

as to penalty? maybe if they had broken a treaty. but they didn't they just formally withdraw from the alliance, as was their right. if there are penalties it is a business contract which is a very different kettle of fish.
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