Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests

The Soul of Haven

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:00 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

kzt wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
We had Andy Jackson usher in his reform. Those new elites secured their positions and voting blocks and led us to the Civil War. The underlying reasons predated Jackson, but the newly formed power blocks enabled the South push back on both legitimate and illegitimate Northern demands. Lord knows what the current President's coterie will do with their newly gained ascendency, but the previous corrupt officials made this swing possible.

The people who started the civil war with the secession of SC tried to have SC secede while Andrew Jackson was president. Unlike James Buchanan, Jackson’s answer was “Try it and I’ll hang the lot of you.”

Yeah, he did. The inheritors of Jackson's movement, however, finally managed to push things far enough and did secede.
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:31 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

If the allegations of MAlign agents on Haven to the exact degree is true, then It seems to me that the MA actually stunted Haven's growth, by infecting their soul. Possibly saving Manticore's hide. There's no denying that Haven was fighting a war on two fronts for a time. One war coming from within.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand...

Hence my niece's "stupid check" sentiment.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by drothgery   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm

drothgery
Admiral

Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

cthia wrote:If the allegations of MAlign agents on Haven to the exact degree is true, then It seems to me that the MA actually stunted Haven's growth, by infecting their soul. Possibly saving Manticore's hide. There's no denying that Haven was fighting a war on two fronts for a time. One war coming from within.

The old Republic of Haven would never have gone to war with Manticore in the first place. The Alignment was behind the political movement that created the Legislaturalists, not the Committee.
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:32 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

PeterZ wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:A nation losing its way and then fighting fo recover its soul seems like a timely topic now. 20 odd years ago, the topic was darned near prescient! It appears social/geopolitical trends are things the suitably educated can see developing. Honor's insights are a reflection of your insight, eh David?

I enjoyed the Havenite redemption theme very much. I enjoyed it more than Honor's forgiveness of the RoH.


Pretty much, in that respect. And it's the same reason Annu is working through so many terrorist groups at the time I wrote Mutineers' Moon. Of course, the folks in Europe in 1914 might have thought much the same thing about the Black Hand. Or the folks in Ireland 50 years later about the IRA and UDL. Or . . . well, I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Every bunch of corrupt and venal politicians and every group of religious or political fanatics seem to think they invented the concept(s). :roll:

I'm pretty sure Gilgamesh was dealing with it, too. Sigh. :(


Indeed so. It seems that the pendulum of governmental corruption swings between extremes. I wish more people would recognize that the concept of liberty assumes that to be the base state of world affairs. Every government reforms and then over-swings the optimal point to reach another extreme. The best way to jitigate those swings is to limit just how far governemt can reach in those extremes. We aren't going to eliminate corruption or self serving government officials. The best we can do is to limit just how powerful a tool those coorrupt officials can employ to serve their corrupt goals.

We had Andy Jackson usher in his reform. Those new elites secured their positions and voting blocks and led us to the Civil War. The underlying reasons predated Jackson, but the newly formed power blocks enabled the South push back on both legitimate and illegitimate Northern demands. Lord knows what the current President's coterie will do with their newly gained ascendency, but the previous corrupt officials made this swing possible.[/quote]

The problem with "reform" is that it usually is close to being as corrupt as what it replaces, although in different ways.

Monarchy in Russia was replaced by socialism which just brought in a group of new rulers. Followers rejoiced that the new group did not grab lots of money. Actually, they simply paid the same as everyone else and got a real lot more for their money. At one point, rents were set as 14 rubles a month. Brejnev paid the 14 for a huge apartment plus a couple of county homes that people paid for one bedroom apartments. He paid the same for a filet mignon that people paid for the worst cuts. And it was all even.

The problem is that those in charge all want to make decisions and they always believe they will do a better job than the populace they control. And by definition they betray them.

While in the Honorverse, Manticoreans are the good guys note that there was a huge amount of corruption particularly through connections. Honor had a great career but Pavel Young outranked her. Note they were in the same year at Academy but he moved up faster. And that went on everywhere. Connections always counted.

Unfortunately, there is no answer. Reformers soon are as corrupt as those they replace.
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:01 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

PeterZ wrote:A nation losing its way and then fighting fo recover its soul seems like a timely topic now. 20 odd years ago, the topic was darned near prescient! It appears social/geopolitical trends are things the suitably educated can see developing. Honor's insights are a reflection of your insight, eh David?

I enjoyed the Havenite redemption theme very much. I enjoyed it more than Honor's forgiveness of the RoH.
runsforcelery wrote:
Pretty much, in that respect. And it's the same reason Annu is working through so many terrorist groups at the time I wrote Mutineers' Moon. Of course, the folks in Europe in 1914 might have thought much the same thing about the Black Hand. Or the folks in Ireland 50 years later about the IRA and UDL. Or . . . well, I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Every bunch of corrupt and venal politicians and every group of religious or political fanatics seem to think they invented the concept(s). :roll:

I'm pretty sure Gilgamesh was dealing with it, too. Sigh. :(
PeterZ wrote:
Indeed so. It seems that the pendulum of governmental corruption swings between extremes. I wish more people would recognize that the concept of liberty assumes that to be the base state of world affairs. Every government reforms and then over-swings the optimal point to reach another extreme. The best way to jitigate those swings is to limit just how far governemt can reach in those extremes. We aren't going to eliminate corruption or self serving government officials. The best we can do is to limit just how powerful a tool those coorrupt officials can employ to serve their corrupt goals.

We had Andy Jackson usher in his reform. Those new elites secured their positions and voting blocks and led us to the Civil War. The underlying reasons predated Jackson, but the newly formed power blocks enabled the South push back on both legitimate and illegitimate Northern demands. Lord knows what the current President's coterie will do with their newly gained ascendency, but the previous corrupt officials made this swing possible.
ldwechsler wrote:
The problem with "reform" is that it usually is close to being as corrupt as what it replaces, although in different ways.

Monarchy in Russia was replaced by socialism which just brought in a group of new rulers. Followers rejoiced that the new group did not grab lots of money. Actually, they simply paid the same as everyone else and got a real lot more for their money. At one point, rents were set as 14 rubles a month. Brejnev paid the 14 for a huge apartment plus a couple of county homes that people paid for one bedroom apartments. He paid the same for a filet mignon that people paid for the worst cuts. And it was all even.

The problem is that those in charge all want to make decisions and they always believe they will do a better job than the populace they control. And by definition they betray them.

While in the Honorverse, Manticoreans are the good guys note that there was a huge amount of corruption particularly through connections. Honor had a great career but Pavel Young outranked her. Note they were in the same year at Academy but he moved up faster. And that went on everywhere. Connections always counted.

Unfortunately, there is no answer. Reformers soon are as corrupt as those they replace.

I don't disagree. The best option we have is to both limit the government's ability to use their monopoly on the use of forces to aggregate power unto themselves as well as periodically removing the current elites from power. The former will limit just how much the corrupt elites can steal from us, while the latter encourages competition between elites to further mitigate how much the can steal.

Separation of powers in government isn't enough. We also need to facilitate the ability of separate power blocks in society to access power. We NEED periodic revolution to prune back entrenched elites. Establishing the foundational system for bloodless revolutions is the genius behind the US Constitution.
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:38 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:If the allegations of MAlign agents on Haven to the exact degree is true, then It seems to me that the MA actually stunted Haven's growth, by infecting their soul. Possibly saving Manticore's hide. There's no denying that Haven was fighting a war on two fronts for a time. One war coming from within.

The old Republic of Haven would never have gone to war with Manticore in the first place. The Alignment was behind the political movement that created the Legislaturalists, not the Committee.


So they never would have become expansionist?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by zyffyr   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:53 pm

zyffyr
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:26 pm

cthia wrote:So they never would have become expansionist?



The socio-economic situation that led to Haven going expansionist would likely have never occurred. That doesn't mean that some other social changes might not have eventually led them down a different path to expansionism, but that resulting entity would have little in common with the old Republic as well.
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by drothgery   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:24 pm

drothgery
Admiral

Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

zyffyr wrote:
cthia wrote:So they never would have become expansionist?



The socio-economic situation that led to Haven going expansionist would likely have never occurred. That doesn't mean that some other social changes might not have eventually led them down a different path to expansionism, but that resulting entity would have little in common with the old Republic as well.


Heck, even any expansionism that wasn't aggressive, involuntary, and primarily economically-driven would not have pushed them into direct conflict with Manticore for a long time. If they were picking off targets of opportunity Andermani-style, Manticore wouldn't have cared at all unless they were grabbing a Junction terminus (and even there the precedent of Gregor says if Haven were willing to accept what the Andies were, it wouldn't be a problem).
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:48 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

zyffyr wrote:
cthia wrote:So they never would have become expansionist?



The socio-economic situation that led to Haven going expansionist would likely have never occurred. That doesn't mean that some other social changes might not have eventually led them down a different path to expansionism, but that resulting entity would have little in common with the old Republic as well.
drothgery wrote:Heck, even any expansionism that wasn't aggressive, involuntary, and primarily economically-driven would not have pushed them into direct conflict with Manticore for a long time. If they were picking off targets of opportunity Andermani-style, Manticore wouldn't have cared at all unless they were grabbing a Junction terminus (and even there the precedent of Gregor says if Haven were willing to accept what the Andies were, it wouldn't be a problem).


But it would have eventually pushed them into conflict. The reason they decided to attack Manticore is because they were in the way and eventually they knew they'd have to deal with the devils anyway.

At any rate, I'll have to yield to all of your better judgement, but it all surprises me. I suppose the expansionism begat the feeding problem which begat more expansionism. Certainly the lack of a protracted war with Manticore would have saved many a centicredit.

It all certainly makes me wonder what Haven would have become in this alternate reality. And whether Manticore would have ever approached Grayson since there wouldn't have become a need. In that case, the roles may have become reversed after the League eventually got around to the Haven sector and Haven would have been the one initially fighting them.

Rose is right. Although many lives and many ships were lost in the confrontation between the two, it turned out for the better -- preparing them both for the gorilla.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:09 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:So they never would have become expansionist?



zyffyr wrote:The socio-economic situation that led to Haven going expansionist would likely have never occurred. That doesn't mean that some other social changes might not have eventually led them down a different path to expansionism, but that resulting entity would have little in common with the old Republic as well.
drothgery wrote:Heck, even any expansionism that wasn't aggressive, involuntary, and primarily economically-driven would not have pushed them into direct conflict with Manticore for a long time. If they were picking off targets of opportunity Andermani-style, Manticore wouldn't have cared at all unless they were grabbing a Junction terminus (and even there the precedent of Gregor says if Haven were willing to accept what the Andies were, it wouldn't be a problem).


But it would have eventually pushed them into conflict. The reason they decided to attack Manticore is because they were in the way and eventually they knew they'd have to deal with the devils anyway.

At any rate, I'll have to yield to all of your better judgement, but it all surprises me. I suppose the expansionism begat the feeding problem which begat more expansionism. Certainly the lack of a protracted war with Manticore would have saved many a centicredit.

It all certainly makes me wonder what Haven would have become in this alternate reality. And whether Manticore would have ever approached Grayson since there wouldn't have become a need. In that case, the roles may have become reversed after the League eventually got around to the Haven sector and Haven would have been the one initially fighting them.

Rose is right. Although many lives and many ships were lost in the confrontation between the two, it turned out for the better -- preparing them both for the gorilla.



Had it not been for the collapse of Péricard's constitution, the Republic of Haven never would have become expansionist even in the Andermani sense of the word.

The Legislaturalists built a corrupt political edifice to guarantee their own and their families' continued domination of their society. The Havenite social safety net — or, rather, a Havenite safety net — was in place long before the hereditary power of the Legislaturalist class was institutionalized. The process by which that was converted into a mechanism of control was the point one of my characters was getting at when he said the Republic had died in its sleep, murdered by people with the best of intentions in the name of enforced equality of outcomes. In essence, the Legislaturalists were in the position of the candidate who actually did run in an election in the US by promising that everyone would enjoy "an above average income." They secured their control by promising continually bigger and better social programs to the increasingly larger percentage of the population which had been excluded from the opportunities which produced superior outcomes for them and their families. And at the same time that they promised those bigger and better programs, they insisted that in a just society — which, of course, their society was — there was no inequality in education, intelligence, starting economic or social position, or even just plain the luck of the draw. More than that, they insisted that anyone who argued that there was such a thing as natural inequality even between individuals, shorn of any group context, was an evil "enemy of the people."

At the same time they were taking that position in public, in private, they were busy monopolizing control of the Havenite economy. A stupendous portion of the total economy was controlled directly by Legislaturalists or their allies, and the corrupt nature of the bargain at the top of the power pyramid permeated all of its other levels, as well. The fish rotted from its head, creating a situation in which the system promised equal access to health services, education, law enforcement, and politics, but in fact delivered nothing but inequality and demanded graft and kickbacks at every level before it made those things available to non-Legislaturalists. Rob Pierre's fury at the system sprang not simply from the death of his son, but because he remembered a time when it had come far closer to making good on those promises. It was the inevitable tendency for those who style themselves "the vanguard" of any movement to monopolize power, control, opportunity, and wealth for the benefit of the members of their own group which pushed the "Athens of the stars" into the exact opposite of what it had been created to be and had, for centuries, actually been.

The Legislaturalists didn't find themselves in a position to enact their bargain overnight. There were trendlines in the Republic which did, in fact, originate from the best of intentions in a society which truly did have the technological and economic resources to ensure that none of its citizens lived in want. Efforts to act upon those intentions had negative as well as positive consequences, because the one law no one can repeal is that of unintended consequences. The negative consequences, however, were fully repairable and fully recoverable before the Legislaturalists got behind them and pushed in the name of personal power. Without that action on the Legislaturalists' part, the Republic of Haven would have had no more cause to expand forcibly than 21st century Sweden would have to invade the United States of America.

Absent the Legislaturalists' manipulation of the situation, the Republic of Haven would almost certainly have going on doing precisely what it had been doing for centuries — and precisely what the Alignment feared it would continue to do — which was to grow as a political entity through the establishment of daughter colonies and the voluntary association of neighboring star systems and to grow in terms of a military threat (to the Alignment's long-term ambitions, not to the SKM or its neighbors) through exactly the sorts of contacts and relationships you can see in the Manticore Ascendant novels. That was the threat the inner onion needed to eliminate, and it did it by encouraging the Legislaturalists' ambitions and putting its covert weight behind policies designed to further cripple and destroy the domestic strength of the People's Republic, on the one hand, and to totally discredit Haven as a counterweight to the Renaissance Factor when the time came for the Solarian League to implode. It was less the direct military threat of the PRN that caused the inner onion worries than it was the ideological threat of Péricard's Republic. It was the risk that star nations seeking security in a galaxy gone mad would turn to an essentially (and demonstrably) benevolent interstellar power which had already created the largest extra-Solarian League political union and mutual defense network in existence. Haven had to be delegitimized just as thoroughly as the League was busy delegitimizing itself through Frontier Security and the Protectorate System.

The Legislaturalists were a homegrown phenomenon; the virulence and destructiveness of their policies, however, received several hefty kicks from the Alignment. They were a tool ready to the Alignment's hand when the time came to gut Haven, and the Alignment used it well. There are no guarantees that the Legislaturalists wouldn't have done precisely what they did do even without Alignment encouragement and manipulation. What we do know is that the Alignment did encourage and manipulate them and that they became conquistadors and eventually found themselves in direct confrontation with the Star Kingdom of Manticore. I will guarantee you, however, that no one in Nouveau Paris (outside the ranks of any Mesan operatives, at least) had any idea where the People's Republic was headed when the Legislaturalists first set out to "game the system" in the name of political power.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top

Return to Honorverse