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The Soul of Haven

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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:51 pm

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I think that Tom made her President because she persuaded him she was a true believer in the Periacard Constitution and the Aprilists stated goal of resurrecting that document.
Dauntless wrote:no question Mcqueen was good at being military.

as history has shown though often when military rightly used to perform a change in govenment, if the general who ran the op takes power afterwards thing rarely improve for the better.

Tom Theisman knew this which is why he made eloise president. Eloise had military skills but she was technically a civ and also knew enough about the previous republic to model her government on similar lines.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by roseandheather   » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:50 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I think that Tom made her President because she persuaded him she was a true believer in the Periacard Constitution and the Aprilists stated goal of resurrecting that document.


You are correct.

War of Honor wrote:But the thing which had truly astounded her was that when he offered her both the political and the military powers of the head of state, he'd meant it.

There hadn't been any strings, no reservations, no secretly retained authority. The one thing Thomas Theisman would never be was a puppet master. There'd been one, and only one, condition, and that had been that Eloise Pritchart prove to him that she was as committed as he was to the restoration of the old Constitution. Not the Constitution of the People's Republic of Haven, which had created the office of Hereditary President and legally enshrined the dynastic power of the Legislaturalists, but the Constitution of the old Republic. The Republic whose citizens had been expected to be more than mere drones and to vote. The one whose presidents and legislators had served at the will of an electorate which held them responsible for their actions.

Pritchart had felt almost awed when she realized she was in the presence of a true romantic. A man who actually believed in the rule of law, the sanctity of solemn oaths, and the inviolability of personal responsibility.

She wondered if he'd always been so divorced from reality, or if he'd become that way as his own defense mechanism as he watched the star nation of his birth go insane about him. It didn't really matter. What mattered was that he was truly and absolutely committed to the very principles for which the Aprilist Movement had come into existence... and that she was almost as hopelessly romantic, in that respect, at least, as he was.

And so, just over eighteen T-months from Oscar Saint-Just's death, Eloise Pritchart, after organizing the transition government and bringing the old Constitution back from the ash heap of history, had become the first elected president of the Republic of Haven in almost two centuries, with Thomas Theisman as her Secretary of War.

There were times when she was highly tempted to shoot him for that.


....I have a lot of emotions about the Republic of Haven okay???
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by feyhunde   » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:25 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm shocked and saddened that McQueen gets such bad press and such a bad rep. I did get the feeling that she was a hard ass, yes. But simply as a byproduct of the stink she served under. I also got the impression that Theisman and everyone else supported her. Or at least wanted to support her. Her brilliant offensive operations against the alliance earned her grudging respect not only from Pierre but from her fellow officers. As every other operation coming out of the RHN was getting handed its head. So, in effect, McQueen was saving Havenite lives.

Anyway, I'm in for a massive reread of the series after I get and complete UH. Perhaps I'll get a better feel for McQueen than I have, that's not influenced by her brilliance.

Her mother always told her "Esther, if you can't always get what you want, then make do with what you have."

She remembered that lesson when defending Trevor's Star. She couldn't get the reinforcements that she needed, so she simply went in her closet, pulled out a few mirrors, lit a cigarette and then proceeded to kick the RMN's ass with simply smoke and mirrors.

Esther didn't need straw to make bricks. LOL


The thing of it is McQueen is just so clearly based on Napoleon we do know her ultimate direction would be Empire. Rob S. Pierre, Oscar Saint-Just, and Cordelia Ransom may not share all the traits of Robspierre, Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just, and Jean-Paul Marat, but the references are clear. (Marat is slightly more obscured, as he was killed by Marie-Anne Charlotte Corday )

McQueen's 'whiff of grapeshot'bringing her to the forefront makes it abundantly clear who she's based on.

So any discussion of a hypothetical McQueen regime becomes an analysis of Bonapartist France. Her government would be one of empire, not republic.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:12 pm

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feyhunde wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm shocked and saddened that McQueen gets such bad press and such a bad rep. I did get the feeling that she was a hard ass, yes. But simply as a byproduct of the stink she served under. I also got the impression that Theisman and everyone else supported her. Or at least wanted to support her. Her brilliant offensive operations against the alliance earned her grudging respect not only from Pierre but from her fellow officers. As every other operation coming out of the RHN was getting handed its head. So, in effect, McQueen was saving Havenite lives.

Anyway, I'm in for a massive reread of the series after I get and complete UH. Perhaps I'll get a better feel for McQueen than I have, that's not influenced by her brilliance.

Her mother always told her "Esther, if you can't always get what you want, then make do with what you have."

She remembered that lesson when defending Trevor's Star. She couldn't get the reinforcements that she needed, so she simply went in her closet, pulled out a few mirrors, lit a cigarette and then proceeded to kick the RMN's ass with simply smoke and mirrors.

Esther didn't need straw to make bricks. LOL


The thing of it is McQueen is just so clearly based on Napoleon we do know her ultimate direction would be Empire. Rob S. Pierre, Oscar Saint-Just, and Cordelia Ransom may not share all the traits of Robspierre, Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just, and Jean-Paul Marat, but the references are clear. (Marat is slightly more obscured, as he was killed by Marie-Anne Charlotte Corday )

McQueen's 'whiff of grapeshot'bringing her to the forefront makes it abundantly clear who she's based on.

So any discussion of a hypothetical McQueen regime becomes an analysis of Bonapartist France. Her government would be one of empire, not republic.


Here's my disconnect. Wasn't the Old Republic — Pericard's Republic that Eloise and Thomas are so passionate about — a government that Esther loved as well? Before the graft and corruption set in. Didn't she also see that the problem was the disease of corruption that had gripped those in power and not the Republic itself?

Any government is only as good as its strongest link and as weak as its most corrupt.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by feyhunde   » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:07 pm

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cthia wrote:
Here's my disconnect. Wasn't the Old Republic — Pericard's Republic that Eloise and Thomas are so passionate about — a government that Esther loved as well? Before the graft and corruption set in. Didn't she also see that the problem was the disease of corruption that had gripped those in power and not the Republic itself?

Any government is only as good as its strongest link and as weak as its most corrupt.


I mean Napoleon was a member of the Jacobin clubs and wrote pamphlets in favor of the Republic. Napoleon justified his later overthrow of The Directory on the grounds of the corruption of the members of the Directory.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:49 am

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I don't remember McQueen having any vision beyond her own advancement. She had a knack for inspiring loyalty in her immediate subordinates, but had a reputation for being ambitious with everyone else.

At any rate, there is nothing of which I am aware that would indicate she had Eloise and Tom's ideals.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:39 pm

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feyhunde wrote:
cthia wrote:
Here's my disconnect. Wasn't the Old Republic — Pericard's Republic that Eloise and Thomas are so passionate about — a government that Esther loved as well? Before the graft and corruption set in. Didn't she also see that the problem was the disease of corruption that had gripped those in power and not the Republic itself?

Any government is only as good as its strongest link and as weak as its most corrupt.


I mean Napoleon was a member of the Jacobin clubs and wrote pamphlets in favor of the Republic. Napoleon justified his later overthrow of The Directory on the grounds of the corruption of the members of the Directory.


It is pretty clear that years ago, RFC was still hung up on the Brit/French Revolution paradigm. That has changed.
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by roseandheather   » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:26 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
It is pretty clear that years ago, RFC was still hung up on the Brit/French Revolution paradigm. That has changed.


AND THANK GOD FOR THAT.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:09 pm

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For the MA to have had such a hefty hand in the proliferation of graft and corruption that gripped the Republic, they must have had a high degree of infiltration by Mesan agents. Surely remnants of that ring still lingers. I always wondered what would sway the League to risk Manticore's ire by selling the RHN technology. Since they had so much to lose being highly vested in their junction. But then, if both the Solarian League and Haven were so deeply compromised by MAlign agents, I can see where the handshaking came from. Hindsight is 20/20. They were greasing the rails and burning the candle on both ends.

Why didn't the MA infiltrate Beowulf, and to the same degree, since they hate all they stand for? Or did they? Is it because no MA agent can live amongst Beowulfans and not regurgitate?

Also, why didn't the MA's agent catch wind of the Aprilist movement? I simply have to assume the level of infiltration within the Republic government was deeper, and consisted of more than a couple of agents, since the IQ of the average Havenite is way above the board of a Solly.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Soul of Haven
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:49 am

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The reestablished Republic would do well for the soul of Haven if it paid reparations to the slain families of officers during the reign of the Committee of the Public's Unsafety. Many families and livelihoods were destroyed who are still trying to claw their way back.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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