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Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance

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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 pm

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I still think the best scenario is a controlled EE violation, much like the one I laid out here. Why does an entity that can get in close enough to read the Queen's itinerary have to launch missiles from way beyond the twilight zone? Since they don't have to launch so far away, the missiles won't reach such planet busting velocities. The MA can even invent smaller sized, tailored weapons as laid out in the referenced thread. They can truly rewrite the book on EEV.

But I think the MA need to learn more patience. Betcha never saw the charge of impatience -- levied at the MA -- coming, huh? But really, it seems as soon as they develop a new weapon they can't wait to unleash it, telling the world this new weapon exists without any real payoff. If they'd develop many new weapons then sit on them for one big assault upon the galaxy, then they would have a real chance to become the new sheriff in town.

They're not in an immediate war and no one knows where they are. They have a luxury other navies can only dream of -- stockpiling newly developed tech and keeping it under wraps until they're ready to unleash it all, simultaneously.

The RMN and the RHN mostly only unveiled one new weapon at a time, for lack of time, and even that one weapon was devastating. The MA can unleash many new weapons at once.

Whatsamatter them? For a bunch of Alphas, they sure seem to possess a dominant gamma gene. Then there's the tum-te-tums. :o

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by pnakasone   » Sun May 26, 2019 10:20 pm

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It would be best for there MA to go quiet for a good length of time. Just do Intel gathering. Let the rest of galaxy start to relax their vigilance and find other things to worry about.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon May 27, 2019 3:48 pm

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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Oyster Bay was nothing less than an act of desperation.

IMHO, if they were going to pull that trigger, they should have set the gun for fully automatic and totally leveled Manticore. Which wouldn't have been advisable unless they could do the same for Grayson, Haven, and key systems of the League as well.

IOW, if they didn't want to simply relocate to some secluded part of the galaxy and do their own thing like everyone thinks they should have, then their plan should have been to wait, wait and wait. . . then exterminate. Doing absolutely nothing at all. Not even unveiling their nanites. Then, when everything is ready, let everything out of the bag at once. An all encompassing Oyster Bay as the first peek out of the MA would have been devastating. By the time the galaxy recovered, the RF would have carved its niche from the remaining rocks and a new era is born.

As it stands, the MA only served up Oysters on a half shell.


This might even still be a good strategy, if they settle down, perfect their technology, train enough crew and build enough ships. Then they can unleash a fury on the unsuspecting galaxy all at once. The RMN only think they can detect them. How can they be sure without a trial run? And if the MAlign has enough ships to swarm a system...

One thing the MA can do is activate a reconnaissance team to collect information about the RMN's detection capabilities. One of the subtle uses of the nanite compulsion Annachie and I discussed in the Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind thread, could be used to infiltrate government secrets.

How can a government vet against nanite compulsion?



The same way they vet for workplace drug use today. They know the nannies are there, now, and not even the MA can come up with nanotech which is impossible to detect once enough really smart people start looking for ways to find it. That's one of the reasons Bardasano was in favor of holding it in reserve as long as possible. Could some infected people slip past even the best safeguards? Sure. But note that until and unless the nannies activated --- which they can only do once without the victim realizing what's up --- any infected people would be cooperating with efforts to make sure they aren't infected. After all, the vast majority of them will be good, loyal Manties (or whatever) and even the ones who aren't particularly patriotic won't want to be carrying around any suicide switches if they can help it! People who are knowing agents of the Alignment would fall into a different category, of course, but that's a much smaller potential pool of recruits, and they'd still have to get by whatever testing program is devised.

This is not to say that everyone can be covered or that third parties from outside the testing envelope couldn't be infected and programmed to ram a freighter into a planet or something like that. The two-pilot rule, which is strictly enforced on any ship trading in GA space, will cut down on that particular threat, but not even that could prevent a genocidal attack if the wherewithal can be slipped through customs and security. The nannies are not a god weapon, however, especially after their existence has been confirmed for both the GA and the Sollies.

There's plenty of room for Sollies to continue to argue about who might be doing what, but the numbers of senior officers who dropped dead when Kingsford and the Ghost Hunters interviewed them before Honor's visit is pretty convincing evidence that somebody's been tampering. And I think you can take it for granted that there were a lot of other convenient demises when the Terran authorities started looking for other potential zombie agents. Now, an awful lot of Sollies have an awful lot invested in blaming the GA for it somehow (any way they can come up with, actually) after the way Honor and the GA handed the League its head. But even the conspiracy nuts who refuse to stop blaming the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ for it will find it very hard to deny that something was going on. Of course, any true member of the tinfoil hat brigade will understand from the get-go that it was the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ who created the nanotech in the first place, specifically so they could use it to "prove" they were the innocent victims rather than the Cruel Imperialists We All Know They Are™. Unfortunately, they will refuse to be taken in and remain the eagle-eyed guardians of All That Is Good™.

Just sayin'.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Thu May 30, 2019 11:11 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Oyster Bay was nothing less than an act of desperation.

IMHO, if they were going to pull that trigger, they should have set the gun for fully automatic and totally leveled Manticore. Which wouldn't have been advisable unless they could do the same for Grayson, Haven, and key systems of the League as well.

IOW, if they didn't want to simply relocate to some secluded part of the galaxy and do their own thing like everyone thinks they should have, then their plan should have been to wait, wait and wait. . . then exterminate. Doing absolutely nothing at all. Not even unveiling their nanites. Then, when everything is ready, let everything out of the bag at once. An all encompassing Oyster Bay as the first peek out of the MA would have been devastating. By the time the galaxy recovered, the RF would have carved its niche from the remaining rocks and a new era is born.

As it stands, the MA only served up Oysters on a half shell.


This might even still be a good strategy, if they settle down, perfect their technology, train enough crew and build enough ships. Then they can unleash a fury on the unsuspecting galaxy all at once. The RMN only think they can detect them. How can they be sure without a trial run? And if the MAlign has enough ships to swarm a system...

One thing the MA can do is activate a reconnaissance team to collect information about the RMN's detection capabilities. One of the subtle uses of the nanite compulsion Annachie and I discussed in the Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind thread, could be used to infiltrate government secrets.

How can a government vet against nanite compulsion?



runsforcelery wrote:The same way they vet for workplace drug use today. They know the nannies are there, now, and not even the MA can come up with nanotech which is impossible to detect once enough really smart people start looking for ways to find it. That's one of the reasons Bardasano was in favor of holding it in reserve as long as possible. Could some infected people slip past even the best safeguards? Sure. But note that until and unless the nannies activated --- which they can only do once without the victim realizing what's up --- any infected people would be cooperating with efforts to make sure they aren't infected. After all, the vast majority of them will be good, loyal Manties (or whatever) and even the ones who aren't particularly patriotic won't want to be carrying around any suicide switches if they can help it! People who are knowing agents of the Alignment would fall into a different category, of course, but that's a much smaller potential pool of recruits, and they'd still have to get by whatever testing program is devised.

This is not to say that everyone can be covered or that third parties from outside the testing envelope couldn't be infected and programmed to ram a freighter into a planet or something like that. The two-pilot rule, which is strictly enforced on any ship trading in GA space, will cut down on that particular threat, but not even that could prevent a genocidal attack if the wherewithal can be slipped through customs and security. The nannies are not a god weapon, however, especially after their existence has been confirmed for both the GA and the Sollies.

There's plenty of room for Sollies to continue to argue about who might be doing what, but the numbers of senior officers who dropped dead when Kingsford and the Ghost Hunters interviewed them before Honor's visit is pretty convincing evidence that somebody's been tampering. And I think you can take it for granted that there were a lot of other convenient demises when the Terran authorities started looking for other potential zombie agents. Now, an awful lot of Sollies have an awful lot invested in blaming the GA for it somehow (any way they can come up with, actually) after the way Honor and the GA handed the League its head. But even the conspiracy nuts who refuse to stop blaming the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ for it will find it very hard to deny that something was going on. Of course, any true member of the tinfoil hat brigade will understand from the get-go that it was the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ who created the nanotech in the first place, specifically so they could use it to "prove" they were the innocent victims rather than the Cruel Imperialists We All Know They Are™. Unfortunately, they will refuse to be taken in and remain the eagle-eyed guardians of All That Is Good™.

Just sayin'.


That's a barrel of laughs. Every applicant, even in the private sector, has to be treated like a computer and vetted for bugs.

Since the Sollies have so much evidence of something fishy going on, and surely they'd want to know who or what really got them into this horrid mess, I wonder if they can accomplish a lot of the search for the MA from right there on Sol, by cross referencing the many overlooked, glossed over, misfiled, ignored reports and other yatta yatta yattas. And if they discover a good lead to the whereabouts of the galaxy's most wanted, would they share it with the Manties. Perhaps in return for lifting or easing off of sanctions.

Late edit:
I also wonder if after the GA identify the nanite a vaccine can be developed. If the Sollies can develop a vaccine, boy would they have a bargaining chip. Yet, how would it be tested? Or would they simply use it to further their own ends. The League could essentially become an opportunistic "copycat" killer.*

Late edit:
*Following the logic that if they can inoculate against it, maybe they can reproduce it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:54 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:There's plenty of room for Sollies to continue to argue about who might be doing what, but the numbers of senior officers who dropped dead when Kingsford and the Ghost Hunters interviewed them before Honor's visit is pretty convincing evidence that somebody's been tampering.

I think it is convincing evidence Kingsford is actually a mass murderer.
Scenario one: Kingsford brought in people and murdered a bunch of them.
Scenario two: Kingsford brought in people and murdered a bunch of them, but he did it by deliberately triggering nano-tech implanted by a spooky conspiracy!

runsforcelery wrote:Now, an awful lot of Sollies have an awful lot invested in blaming the GA for it somehow (any way they can come up with, actually) after the way Honor and the GA handed the League its head. But even the conspiracy nuts who refuse to stop blaming the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ for it will find it very hard to deny that something was going on. Of course, any true member of the tinfoil hat brigade will understand from the get-go that it was the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™ who created the nanotech in the first place, specifically so they could use it to "prove" they were the innocent victims rather than the Cruel Imperialists We All Know They Are™. Unfortunately, they will refuse to be taken in and remain the eagle-eyed guardians of All That Is Good™.
Even if the Terrans believe the nano-tech theory, who does the best nano-tech again? I'm pretty sure it is actually the Evil Manties and Their Henchmen™! :lol:



cthia wrote:I also wonder if after the GA identify the nanite a vaccine can be developed. If the Sollies can develop a vaccine, boy would they have a bargaining chip. Yet, how would it be tested? Or would they simply use it to further their own ends. The League could essentially become an opportunistic "copycat" killer.*
The Sollies might actually be best placed to develop a vaccine, if they can get their act together before Kingsford murders all the infected. If they can isolate some of the virus without triggered the "clean-up" stuff, they can study it and develop counter-measures.

1) Produce enough vaccine for everyone in their country, in case of outbreak.
2) Keep a sample of the disease in their labs. For research. Yeah, research. That's the ticket.
cthia wrote:But I think the MA need to learn more patience. Betcha never saw the charge of impatience -- levied at the MA -- coming, huh? But really, it seems as soon as they develop a new weapon they can't wait to unleash it, telling the world this new weapon exists without any real payoff. If they'd develop many new weapons then sit on them for one big assault upon the galaxy, then they would have a real chance to become the new sheriff in town.
The current leadership most certainly needs to learn patience. The Beowulf disaster? That was a great example. When you start throwing out strikes like that you do NOT leave an ally capable of retaliation. Seriously, they should have won it.
1) Wait for your big stealth ships to be ready to strike.
2) Have them fire from six light months out at the planets.
3) Watch the GA vanish!

Seriously, they could even tell the people on Darius what they did. "In light of the Grand Alliance murdering hundreds of millions of innocent people on Mesa this is the only choice we have to keep the people on Darius safe."
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:35 pm

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It's not too late for that.

Please remember, you are going up against Alphas. At this point, what the MA can do is orchestrate some sort of a Machiavellian plan of misdirection.

If I were them, I'd unleash Lenny's Pets along with the Spiders and everything else and along with the kitchen sink, in a total assault on the galaxy. They've got to be brutal and completely destroy infrastructure, even at the expense of an accidental Edict violation. This should be sufficient enough to frighten many systems. Let alone pretty much unprotected League systems. Then, the MA should equip the RF with tech that can fight them off. Supposedly. Systems will be beating down their door for protection. The MA can even falsely attack RF planets, as part of the misdirection.

IOW, raise unholy hell in the galaxy on a scale that's never before seen.

These are Alphas! Are they living on Gamma?

tlb wrote:The whole purpose of the plan was to put the Renaissance Factor into position to become the largest collection of people in inhabited space.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by tlb   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:17 pm

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tlb wrote:The whole purpose of the plan was to put the Renaissance Factor into position to become the largest collection of people in inhabited space.

cthia wrote:Please remember, you are going up against Alphas. At this point, what the MA can do is orchestrate some sort of a Machiavellian plan of misdirection.

If I were them, I'd unleash Lenny's Pets along with the Spiders and everything else and along with the kitchen sink, in a total assault on the galaxy. They've got to be brutal and completely destroy infrastructure, even at the expense of an accidental Edict violation. This should be sufficient enough to frighten many systems. Let alone pretty much unprotected League systems. Then, the MA should equip the RF with tech that can fight them off. Supposedly. Systems will be beating down their door for protection. The MA can even falsely attack RF planets, as part of the misdirection.

IOW, raise unholy hell in the galaxy on a scale that's never been seen.

These are Alphas! Are they living on Gamma?

That is a plan, but it is not the Detweiler Plan. However after long hard thought about what to do next, maybe that is what they will decide. We will just have to wait to see what happens in the next book(s) with Eric Flint.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:34 pm

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Tlb, who's to say what the Detweiler Plan really was, ultimately, and totally? What if the plan was much more encompassing than we give it credit for (like it most certainly is), superior to the Harrington Plan in every way?

How do you know there wasn't a contingency plan for this exact situation? Again, we are dealing with Alphas, they are accustomed to looking many chess moves into the future. And they had centuries to sit around camp fires while cooking their plan over the open flame - 'til desired doneness - and speaking clandestinely to the faces reflecting in the fire, contemplating their opening moves, and the End Game. If you haven't realized it, the MA are heavily into real estate. They're Real Estate Developers. They must know how to close a deal. They simply must, considering the business they're in. LOL

Anisimovna can easily write the final chapter. She gets my nod. And she's ruthless enough to make the call.

What Malign entity do you give the nod to to write the final chapter, like Harrington?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by tlb   » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:18 am

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Have you given up on the OFS vs SLN thread that you started intending to show that the Office of Frontier Security should have been the salvation of the League navy?
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:34 am

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tlb wrote:Have you given up on the OFS vs SLN thread that you started intending to show that the Office of Frontier Security should have been the salvation of the League navy?

Not quite done with that thread, no.

I can't say, for certain, that I'll ever be done with any thread, for certain.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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