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Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance

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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:29 am

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pappilon wrote:WOW! Been gone a month ...and look at the place. Read through this entire thread today.

Answering some things without spoilers to Cthia will be difficult but I will try. (1) The RF is 12 (or 13?) systems with their own SDFs, Mannerheim's being the largest, most modern by GA standards, and most powerful among equals (The RF).

(2)MAN: Are we assuming Alpha naval officers have the hubris of Pavel Young and the rich kid that was with Helen on their snotty cruise? Any decent young Alpha Line ensign fresh out of the academy would be wise to learn whatever she could from some Gamma Line SCPO with 10 hash marks on her sleeve.
Likewise said LtJG EWO of said Alpha Line would be wise to listen to her Beta Line ATO. and so forth up the line. Yes, at some point the Alphas will rise to the top of the chain of command as all other lines will rise to their lowest level of incompetence. Military discipline and chain of command should enforce reason.
The critical thing is not genetic lineage but training, experience and, last but never least, competence should rule the day.

3) Government: The planetary government of Darius is an Oligarchy of B-G clones at the top with whatever agencies they need under them and some ruling body board of directors like Mesa & Beowulf as the public face similar to the Mandarins of the SL. But the states/provinces/whatever smaller regional governing bodies can very well be democratically elected, as can the city governments.

4) Speeding up of end game. Houdini was sped up because of the events in the Talbott Sector. Oyster Bay was sped up because of the totally unpredicted Operation Beatrice which came ->||<- that close to succeeding. Also Filareta was already in place with a use or eliminate clock ticking regardless, so we may as well use him. Albrecht was disappointed that Filareta did not even scratch 8th Fleet's paint.

5) Sharks & Lenny Ds. Sorry, nobody gets to fly the MIG 23 on first day of flight school. No spoiler hre: The Lenny Ds were mostly 2 years from completion at he end of one of the last books. UH only advances the time line 6 months or so, RFC has previously posted. So some are much closer to being finished than the rest, always were, but implausible to think any are finished with only 6 onths elapsed. Which does not mean all the technology going into them is not completely developed.

4) Most potential spoiler, so ALERT
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RFC said previously that he was at the point where Barregos was about to or had launched Operation Sepoy, so safe to assume the RF (and others?) did the same by the end of the book.


Thanks for the effort pappilon.

In light of JohnRoth's revelation that the League will be left intact, I am certain of one question emanating from the minds of all of us virgins willing to hold onto our hymen until the book...

What measures were taken to ensure the League won't rise from the ashes and bulldoze the little mosquitos at some point in the future? Just as was originally expected.

"Silly rabbits, tricks are for kids."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:15 am

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the question can't be answered without massive spoilers.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:27 am

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Dauntless wrote:the question can't be answered without massive spoilers.


Thanks Dauntless. I assumed as much. Just casting the thought out there from us poor virgins. You gave just enough for inference of the least kind - that it is indeed properly handled. As promised by the creator. That three letter entity with all the power. RFC.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:42 pm

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Had the Detweilers been willing to rely on salesmanship, they could probably have gotten most of what they wanted. The real issue is that they want to jam what they are after down everybody elses throat...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Sigs   » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:30 am

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n7axw wrote:Had the Detweilers been willing to rely on salesmanship, they could probably have gotten most of what they wanted. The real issue is that they want to jam what they are after down everybody elses throat...

Don

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And thats why they will lose. Even the RF might be questioning if the Detweilers have what it takes especially how things went down in the last stages of the book and how exposed they are now. They have done some shady things since they were introduced and now everything they did comes back to haunt them as the League and all core systems will be searching for a place to lay the blame for the last attack.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:45 pm

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Sigs wrote:
n7axw wrote:Had the Detweilers been willing to rely on salesmanship, they could probably have gotten most of what they wanted. The real issue is that they want to jam what they are after down everybody elses throat...

Don

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And thats why they will lose. Even the RF might be questioning if the Detweilers have what it takes especially how things went down in the last stages of the book and how exposed they are now. They have done some shady things since they were introduced and now everything they did comes back to haunt them as the League and all core systems will be searching for a place to lay the blame for the last attack.


Not necessarily. What put a spoke in the Detweiler Plan was King Roger's secret research program and then military buildup. Without that, Haven would have rolled over Manticore like a tsunami. Even with that, it took a number of very capable people to stem the tide.

Both the Detweiler Plan and the Harrington Plan focused on breaking up the League. Neither one is spelled out in detail, but we know that the Detweiler Plan had the Protectorates rebelling, beginning with Maya. The Harrington Plan was focused on economic pressure.

Now, that's not what happened. What did happen is somewhere in this Pearl: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/1 , but I'm not going to say exactly where or what it was.

However, if you think of what happened in the last book before UH, it ought to be obvious. I won't say it was obvious, because I certainly didn't expect it even though I had put together all the pieces and said exactly what was going to happen in a post on this forum - and still didn't see the conclusion. :(

So where did Albrecht go wrong? He didn't consider what might happen if Manticore actually won the conflict with the SL. He concentrated on taking out Manticore as a factor, and didn't have his nose rubbed in his strategic failure until the "Oh, Shit" moment when he was informed that Haven had allied with Manticore. At that point it was too late. The conference on Mannerheim had occurred two months previously (22/04), and Albrecht had pulled the trigger the following month (22/05).

All he could do was accelerate Houdini and concentrate on vanishing down a rabbit hole and pulling the hole in after him.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:48 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
Not necessarily. What put a spoke in the Detweiler Plan was King Roger's secret research program and then military buildup. Without that, Haven would have rolled over Manticore like a tsunami. Even with that, it took a number of very capable people to stem the tide.

Both the Detweiler Plan and the Harrington Plan focused on breaking up the League. Neither one is spelled out in detail, but we know that the Detweiler Plan had the Protectorates rebelling, beginning with Maya. The Harrington Plan was focused on economic pressure.

Now, that's not what happened. What did happen is somewhere in this Pearl: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/1 , but I'm not going to say exactly where or what it was.

However, if you think of what happened in the last book before UH, it ought to be obvious. I won't say it was obvious, because I certainly didn't expect it even though I had put together all the pieces and said exactly what was going to happen in a post on this forum - and still didn't see the conclusion. :(

So where did Albrecht go wrong? He didn't consider what might happen if Manticore actually won the conflict with the SL. He concentrated on taking out Manticore as a factor, and didn't have his nose rubbed in his strategic failure until the "Oh, Shit" moment when he was informed that Haven had allied with Manticore. At that point it was too late. The conference on Mannerheim had occurred two months previously (22/04), and Albrecht had pulled the trigger the following month (22/05).

All he could do was accelerate Houdini and concentrate on vanishing down a rabbit hole and pulling the hole in after him.


I was more talking about the specifics regarding what happened in Beowulf. There were one of three guilty parties, it was either the SLN who slaughtered so many people, it was the GA that slaughtered so many people or it was an unknown third party that did it. When the League denies that it was responsible, and the SLN denies it was responsible and the GA denies that it was responsible and it does not place blame on the SLN and the League ,people would be likely to start believing that the MA exists. Everyone will be scrambling to find the guilty party and place the blame on them because no-one wants to be associated with an atrocity however separated from the decision process they are. Once they start thinking about a party unknown for beowulf they start thinking about what happened in Mesa, Manticore, Grayson and New Tuscany. Add to that that the new Senior League Leadership both civilian and military is well aware that there is a third party within their ranks means that they will be gunning for that third party and I have a feeling they will be more than willing to cooperate with the GA in any way shape or form in order to absolve themselves of the blame. Then there is the SLN and its losses, they lost millions of people and wether the MA wants it or not eventually they will get the blame for that as well. Once you add up the death toll no-one will want to touch the MA even their allies.


Once people start questioning the actions at Beowulf and their utter brutality they will go back to every previous instance as well, when the MA is exposed wether by name or not people will oppose them as best they can simply because of their brutality at Beowulf, brutality everyone can understand because it happened in a core world. Beowulf was the key, once they accept that it was a third party that committed the atrocities at Beowulf then the line of thinking will attribute everything before it to the same group as well. At that point the RF might quickly distance itself from the MA because of the change in leadership in the MA and their poor decision making skills.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:43 pm

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I've maintained from the beginning that there was a conflict of interest inherent in the relationship between the RF and the Detweilers. The RF represents the Board of Directors. The Detweilers are the founders of the whole shebang. Well, Leonard, to be exact.

When the original founder of a company dies, the show must go on. The Board is concerned with the company and its own well-being, NOT the vision. The Board never saw the complete vision anyway, and they were never as passionate about it as Leonard. Add to the fact that the Board never had as profound a hardon for Beowulf as Leonard. It could never have been as personal to the Board as it was for Leonard. The Board was never the one scorned. They wanted to stick it to Beowulf as well, sure. Because they also disagreed with where Beowulf stood against genetic uplift -- but stick it to them by completing the plan and showing the galaxy how wrong it was to listen to them. Not by an all costs proposition to 'Git Beowulf! Git Beowulf!'

The thing Leonard had going for himself — and sitting center stage about the reason for cloning his sons — is that after he is dead and gone, his sons would be faithful at taking up the mantle to spite Beowulf. And would be as passionate about it as he. They're certainly not as smart, but they're as passionate. And definitely not as patient.

After all is said and done, just like Khan and his genetic super soldiers had an inextinguishable blazing furnace burning in their bellies for Kirk and the Enterprise for stranding them on an isolated, unforgiving planet in the galaxy -- in the end, all that mattered to Khan was to take Kirk down with him unto death. And he dragged his crew, screaming and complaining down with him. In the end, I'm afraid the sons aren't going to settle for anything less than a planet kablooey! One way, or the other.

We, and the RF, may see whatever has transpired in UH as a setback for the MA. I'm willing to bet the disaster that befell Beowulf is a damn good consolation prize for the Detweilers.

I'm afraid that before the MA is defeated, Beowulf will be done. Well done.

Wouldn't it be dramatic if the six sons, likewise, boarded a Lenny Det and took it to Beowulf on a suicide mission of revenge?

Let's call it, The Wrath of the Cons.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:09 am

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Oyster Bay was nothing less than an act of desperation.

IMHO, if they were going to pull that trigger, they should have set the gun for fully automatic and totally leveled Manticore. Which wouldn't have been advisable unless they could do the same for Grayson, Haven, and key systems of the League as well.

IOW, if they didn't want to simply relocate to some secluded part of the galaxy and do their own thing like everyone thinks they should have, then their plan should have been to wait, wait and wait. . . then exterminate. Doing absolutely nothing at all. Not even unveiling their nanites. Then, when everything is ready, let everything out of the bag at once. An all encompassing Oyster Bay as the first peek out of the MA would have been devastating. By the time the galaxy recovered, the RF would have carved its niche from the remaining rocks and a new era is born.

As it stands, the MA only served up Oysters on a half shell.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:57 am

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cthia wrote:Oyster Bay was nothing less than an act of desperation.

IMHO, if they were going to pull that trigger, they should have set the gun for fully automatic and totally leveled Manticore. Which wouldn't have been advisable unless they could do the same for Grayson, Haven, and key systems of the League as well.

IOW, if they didn't want to simply relocate to some secluded part of the galaxy and do their own thing like everyone thinks they should have, then their plan should have been to wait, wait and wait. . . then exterminate. Doing absolutely nothing at all. Not even unveiling their nanites. Then, when everything is ready, let everything out of the bag at once. An all encompassing Oyster Bay as the first peek out of the MA would have been devastating. By the time the galaxy recovered, the RF would have carved its niche from the remaining rocks and a new era is born.

As it stands, the MA only served up Oysters on a half shell.


This might even still be a good strategy, if they settle down, perfect their technology, train enough crew and build enough ships. Then they can unleash a fury on the unsuspecting galaxy all at once. The RMN only think they can detect them. How can they be sure without a trial run? And if the MAlign has enough ships to swarm a system...

One thing the MA can do is activate a reconnaissance team to collect information about the RMN's detection capabilities. One of the subtle uses of the nanite compulsion Annachie and I discussed in the Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind thread, could be used to infiltrate government secrets.

How can a government vet against nanite compulsion?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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