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Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance

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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:46 am

cthia
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I want that book!

The Perfect Machiavellian Malign Plan

The RF sponsored star systems still exist. There's nothing preventing them from going on with that part of their endgame by seceding, and blaming the fact that Harrington opened their eyes to the graft and corruption that had been going on in the League. Then citing a willingness to secede, following in Beowulf's footsteps.

Beowulf has bought and paved the way to a smooth secession by shedding its own blood. Then they can coalesce and form their own government and entice others to join. What's stopping them from still doing that? If smart, they can even choose to trade with the GA, perhaps even lure the GA to support and sponsor them with technology and ships. Grayson style.

Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

That would be the perfect Machiavellian Malign plan, a century in the making.

.
Last edited by cthia on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:06 am

cthia
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Dauntless wrote:I'm guessing with the SL gone they would have said its laws, like beowulf restrictions on Genetic engineering, no longer applied.

then they would have started letting people mod their children to a greater degree then generally has been permitted. after a decade/2 to see how that was going then further mods would have allowed. etc etc until there billions of normal sane humans walking around that were proof that being a geennie wasn't a bad thing. from there it becomes fashionable and all the elites children must be gennies.

once the elites are all gennies then everyone else who isn't gennie will be deemed as unimportant. then the non-geenies become second class citizens, who can't vote. can't own property. can't hold govenment office.

you see where this is going?

a non gennie parent will mortgage their soul to have a gennie child, who can do everything they can not. eventually there are no more "natrual" humans being born and they slowly die out.

then those gennies of "peasant" parents will be reduce to the same menial work that was all their non gennie ancestors were allowed to do.


I see the validity in your logic and agree on the possibility of it happening. I can even understand the arrogance behind the mindset that would allow it to happen in a society like that. And I know for a fact that humanity is arrogant enough to allow the extinction of an valuable creature he does not understand. He has done it many times already in the past. Why would he not fail to see the value in preserving part of himself from going extinct?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:18 pm

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because the MA don't understand what leonard wanted.

he thought the beowulf code was too restricted, he never wanted it freed to the extent that the MA already uses it.

so if they are this far off the plan, whose entire reason for being was to provide safe but greater mods then beowulf was happy with. then why would they bother keeping a relic of the past.

to the MA everything is about proving how superior a gennie is to a non geenie. they don't want to keep the non-geenie around. full stop.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by pappilon   » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:36 am

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WOW! Been gone a month ...and look at the place. Read through this entire thread today.

Answering some things without spoilers to Cthia will be difficult but I will try. (1) The RF is 12 (or 13?) systems with their own SDFs, Mannerheim's being the largest, most modern by GA standards, and most powerful among equals (The RF).

(2)MAN: Are we assuming Alpha naval officers have the hubris of Pavel Young and the rich kid that was with Helen on their snotty cruise? Any decent young Alpha Line ensign fresh out of the academy would be wise to learn whatever she could from some Gamma Line SCPO with 10 hash marks on her sleeve.
Likewise said LtJG EWO of said Alpha Line would be wise to listen to her Beta Line ATO. and so forth up the line. Yes, at some point the Alphas will rise to the top of the chain of command as all other lines will rise to their lowest level of incompetence. Military discipline and chain of command should enforce reason.
The critical thing is not genetic lineage but training, experience and, last but never least, competence should rule the day.

3) Government: The planetary government of Darius is an Oligarchy of B-G clones at the top with whatever agencies they need under them and some ruling body board of directors like Mesa & Beowulf as the public face similar to the Mandarins of the SL. But the states/provinces/whatever smaller regional governing bodies can very well be democratically elected, as can the city governments.

4) Speeding up of end game. Houdini was sped up because of the events in the Talbott Sector. Oyster Bay was sped up because of the totally unpredicted Operation Beatrice which came ->||<- that close to succeeding. Also Filareta was already in place with a use or eliminate clock ticking regardless, so we may as well use him. Albrecht was disappointed that Filareta did not even scratch 8th Fleet's paint.

5) Sharks & Lenny Ds. Sorry, nobody gets to fly the MIG 23 on first day of flight school. No spoiler hre: The Lenny Ds were mostly 2 years from completion at he end of one of the last books. UH only advances the time line 6 months or so, RFC has previously posted. So some are much closer to being finished than the rest, always were, but implausible to think any are finished with only 6 onths elapsed. Which does not mean all the technology going into them is not completely developed.

4) Most potential spoiler, so ALERT
~~~
~~~
~~~

~~~
~~~
~~~

RFC said previously that he was at the point where Barregos was about to or had launched Operation Sepoy, so safe to assume the RF (and others?) did the same by the end of the book.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Peregrinator   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

It would be cool but it's so obviously not true considering the relative health of the Graysons and their lack (until Manticore came along) of widely-available prolong. A MA sleeper agent on Grayson would be too obvious.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:47 pm

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cthia wrote:If you were the MA, wouldn't you position a stealthed ship outside of the junction to watch it at all times? If someone comes nosing around and do find it, they'll never get a chance to report it.

"Oh shit! Incomi--"


Isn't there a chance that the azure bleed of downward translations will be noticed?


The MA can get the scout, no problem. It's not going to fare so well against the forces that come investigating the lost scout. The MA has no real defense from scouts other than luck.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:02 pm

Loren Pechtel
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cthia wrote:I want that book!

The Perfect Machiavellian Malign Plan

The RF sponsored star systems still exist. There's nothing preventing them from going on with that part of their endgame by seceding, and blaming the fact that Harrington opened their eyes to the graft and corruption that had been going on in the League. Then citing a willingness to secede, following in Beowulf's footsteps.

Beowulf has bought and paved the way to a smooth secession by shedding its own blood. Then they can coalesce and form their own government and entice others to join. What's stopping them from still doing that? If smart, they can even choose to trade with the GA, perhaps even lure the GA to support and sponsor them with technology and ships. Grayson style.

Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

That would be the perfect Machiavellian Malign plan, a century in the making.

.


There's a 'cat colony there. No way.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:20 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:
cthia wrote:Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

It would be cool but it's so obviously not true considering the relative health of the Graysons and their lack (until Manticore came along) of widely-available prolong. A MA sleeper agent on Grayson would be too obvious.


However possible - through Honor's jailbreak. Since Haven's prison "bad boys" and high ranking disappearances from all their conquests and (later) legislaturalists families were on Hades, it makes it possible at a handful of MA plants were taken from leading families on conquest planets and from legislaturalist families inadvertently over the years. And it's possible that they made their way to Haven.


Low probabilities, but still possible.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:26 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10611
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Peregrinator wrote:
cthia wrote:Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

It would be cool but it's so obviously not true considering the relative health of the Graysons and their lack (until Manticore came along) of widely-available prolong. A MA sleeper agent on Grayson would be too obvious.
Theemile wrote:However possible - through Honor's jailbreak. Since Haven's prison "bad boys" and high ranking disappearances from all their conquests and (later) legislaturalists families were on Hades, it makes it possible at a handful of MA plants were taken from leading families on conquest planets and from legislaturalist families inadvertently over the years. And it's possible that they made their way to Haven.


Low probabilities, but still possible.


True. And true.

However, I think it would be veritably impossible to imagine any such type of a Machiavellian plan that would fit the profile of Grayson. A star system of religious fanatics overcome by the likes of such a Machiavellian plan emanating from the MA? Even the Masadans wouldn't have fallen for it.

I was simply mind experimenting with the possibility that the MA could mastermind something like that with its RF sponsored nations. A century later, this coalesced band of systems could lay low and play the game by the common galaxy's rule. They could recruit Manticore and build up the kind of trust with Manticore just like Grayson. Perhaps even get Manticore to pour in lots of cash, and tech, helping to fund its efforts. It'll work. I simply used Grayson to put the thought in the right perspective.

The RF should form that new polity and become one of the good guys on the outside, while still stewing on the inside.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:51 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:
cthia wrote:Can you imagine if Grayson was really an RF sponsored star nation, who eventually comes out of the closet and bites the hell out of the hand that's been feeding them, with some of their own tech? Suddenly all of the GA ships, that has mainly RF officers aboard them from the trust that's been built up, seize control of the ships like the Masadans did. Only now, the MAN is ready and rolling. Loaded for bare—ass.

It would be cool but it's so obviously not true considering the relative health of the Graysons and their lack (until Manticore came along) of widely-available prolong. A MA sleeper agent on Grayson would be too obvious.
Theemile wrote:However possible - through Honor's jailbreak. Since Haven's prison "bad boys" and high ranking disappearances from all their conquests and (later) legislaturalists families were on Hades, it makes it possible at a handful of MA plants were taken from leading families on conquest planets and from legislaturalist families inadvertently over the years. And it's possible that they made their way to Haven.


Low probabilities, but still possible.


True. And true.

However, I think it would be veritably impossible to imagine any such type of a Machiavellian plan that would fit the profile of Grayson. A star system of religious fanatics overcome by the likes of such a Machiavellian plan emanating from the MA? Even the Masadans wouldn't have fallen for it.

I was simply mind experimenting with the possibility that the MA could mastermind something like that with its RF sponsored nations. A century later, this coalesced band of systems could lay low and play the game by the common galaxy's rule. They could recruit Manticore and build up the kind of trust with Manticore just like Grayson. Perhaps even get Manticore to pour in lots of cash, and tech, helping to fund its efforts. It'll work. I simply used Grayson to put the thought in the right perspective.

The RF should form that new polity and become one of the good guys on the outside, while still stewing on the inside.[/quote]

A perfect plan would be one in which no one realizes they were taken over. Actually, Grayson already had that. The changes that were put in place to deal with the disease that hit the early settlers was an example of how a fairly simple change morphed into a major societal one.

Had a team of geneticists come to Grayson very early and pretended to want to help they could have made a lot of changes secretly.


That would have been perfect.
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