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Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance

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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:06 pm

cthia
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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:
Losing lots of ships and suffering lots of failed Operations would be even more wasteful. Hopefully they won't have a shortage on either when they emerge from behind the iron curtains.

I gave it a little thought. At any rate, what lines would serve aboard ship? I don't think the MAN would want to seed the ships with COs and XOs with the IQ of the average Solly officer. Especially after having followed their careers and found out how useless they are. The Alpha lines are stated to become the ruling class, yes, so I don't know if in their society that would exclude them from commanding a warship. However, in Manticoran society, Grayson and Andermani the ruling class can be whatever they want. Luckily for them too.

The Beta and Gamma lines are listed as slated to serve the RF, so they are definitely amongst the pool of officers and crew. Yet, if the MA believe in their own rhetoric, then certainly a Beta wouldn't serve as an XO to a Gamma. No?

What is available? Alphas, Betas and Gammas. They are going to be going up against the most experienced Navies of the galaxy. With at least one who has Alpha level intelligence and essentially an undefeated string of victories, Harrington. They cannot afford to fail to at least match up intellectually. Certainly not if their tech fails to match up as well.

They better talk to Tourville before tackling Harrington, and if they send someone weak and he gets his head handed to him and then his replacement and so forth and so on -- and they weren't Alphas, then they are going to have to send Alphas anyway, sooner or later. May as well send the best out of the starting gate.

Initially, I figured at least the Admirals and Captains will be Alphas. But then that leaves the XOs to be Beta or Gamma, who will eventually make Captain or Admiral. It is certainly interesting how it will actually go down.

They better at least have an Alpha going up against Harrington. I can think of several more GA officers that will easily go through the inferior lines.

At any rate, you could very well be closer to the truth and the ships will be commanded and crewed by Betas and Gammas.

They're probably arrogant enough to think their Betas and Gammas will match up. And they may. But if they don't, then by their own logic, they sent Betas and Gammas to do an Alpha's job.



If they were smart they would basically organize their military along traditional lines, make the capabilities rise above the the genetic line they may represent. Saying that all Alpha's are automatically better then all Gamma's leads to all kinds of problems. Maybe the Alpha's are generally all around better then the Gamma's but doesn't mean that a Gamma cannot be just as good as any Alpha. We have seen throughout the series that the slave lines were not stupid, in fact many of the freed slaves were very intelligent maybe equal to or superior to many alphas. Problems arise when a war kicks off because people may see that in another society they won't be subservient because of their genetic line but have the ability to go and do what they please. Having a large % of your population feeling oppressed may not be the best thing for a long lasting society.


You certainly said a mouthful there. If they are smart. And what is that other word Weird Harold used? Rational.

However, if they do so. Wouldn't that pretty much undermine their own ideology and admit to the galaxy at large and themselves that the whole superior, genetic uplift thing is a pipedream? It would essentially be like shooting themselves in the foot before they can waltz in front of the galaxy.

I suspect they are going to get slapped in the face just like Hitler's master race by many Jesse Owenses piloting GA ships.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:35 pm

cthia
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Perhaps an Alpha will be sent with each ship in an administrative capacity. Much like the People's Commissioners of StateSec.


Good thing Albrecht will be dead when they eventually come out of the closet because I got the feeling he didn't tolerate failure too well. He'd've ended up "retiring" failed officers faster than the Committee of Public Safety. I don't know how much better Benjy is going to turn out to be on the tolerance front when faced with failure. Will he essentially end up blaming the failure and flaw in the centuries old plan on the failures of the officers to carry it out?

Will the MAN officers essentially be up against the same impossible feat as Harrington -- when she pitted a raped Fearless with a one-trick-pony against the galaxy?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Sigs   » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:34 pm

Sigs
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cthia wrote:
You certainly said a mouthful there. If they are smart. And what is that other word Weird Harold used? Rational.

However, if they do so. Wouldn't that pretty much undermine their own ideology and admit to the galaxy at large and themselves that the whole superior, genetic uplift thing is a pipedream? It would essentially be like shooting themselves in the foot before they can waltz in front of the galaxy.

I suspect they are going to get slapped in the face just like Hitler's master race by many Jesse Owenses piloting GA ships.


I would say that they would get slapped in the face by making some Gamma line military genius remain a technician rather than where he would be of most benefit to them. They can end up having their own version of Adm Harrington but keep him as a technician and deprive themselves of his/her services just because they were of a different class.

End of the day it's an advantage for the GA and a loss for the MA.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:54 am

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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:
You certainly said a mouthful there. If they are smart. And what is that other word Weird Harold used? Rational.

However, if they do so. Wouldn't that pretty much undermine their own ideology and admit to the galaxy at large and themselves that the whole superior, genetic uplift thing is a pipedream? It would essentially be like shooting themselves in the foot before they can waltz in front of the galaxy.

I suspect they are going to get slapped in the face just like Hitler's master race by many Jesse Owenses piloting GA ships.


I would say that they would get slapped in the face by making some Gamma line military genius remain a technician rather than where he would be of most benefit to them. They can end up having their own version of Adm Harrington but keep him as a technician and deprive themselves of his/her services just because they were of a different class.

End of the day it's an advantage for the GA and a loss for the MA.


I got the feeling that even the gammas were considered an improvement over the rest of humanity.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:19 am

cthia
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ldwechsler wrote:I got the feeling that even the gammas were considered an improvement over the rest of humanity.


I think, by Malign design, that is allegedly the case and therein lies the problem. If the MA believes in their own rhetoric then officers will be trained from both pools of Betas and Gammas. Yet we all know that Harrington equals their own Alphas and she doesn't have an equal in her neck of the woods. She'll have a field day against Betas and Gammas, leaving Benjy with what conclusions?

If officers are picked from Betas and Gammas, how will they be promoted? Would a Gamma be promoted over a Beta? It would certainly be interesting to know what genetic makeup Captain Walsh and Admiral Tupolev are.

On top of that, out of what line did the MA pluck the staff of the MAN's Task Force 1...

Commanding Officer: Admiral Frederick Topolev
  • Commander Theresa Coleman - Chief of Staff
  • Commander Felicidad Kolstad - Operations Officer
  • Commander Martin McClelland - Electronics Warfare Officer
  • Lieutenant Commander Vivienne Henning - Astrogator

Task Group 1.1 utilizing an Admiral (Topolev) consisted of fifteen strike ships directed against the Manticore A system and its shipyards, HMSS Hephaestus and HMSS Vulcan.

Task Group 1.2 utilizing a Rear Admiral (Lydia Papnikitas) consisted of six strike ships directed against the Manticore B system and its shipyard, HMSS Weyland,.

Task Group 1.3 utilizing only a Commodore (Commodore Karol Østby) who Lorded over the scout ships transported by carrier.

Notice that the carrier is commanded by a captain (Rachel Jacobi). A position the RMN thought important enough to utilize an Admiral with Alice Truman.
  • MANS Wallaby, Captain Rachel Jacobi commanding, carrier
  • MANS Chameleon, Captain Eric Masters commanding, scout, flagship
  • six other scout ships

Task Group 1.4
Another group of scout ships, CO - Commodore Milena Omelchenko.

They don't seem to value their carriers as much as the RMN does, electing to hand it over to a mere Captain.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by Dauntless   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:30 am

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only when Alice was captain of Hydra was she the direct commander of the Carrier.

after that she commanded sqaudrons of carriers as an admairl, the same way any admiral commands their task force/fleet.
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:36 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Dauntless wrote:only when Alice was captain of Hydra was she the direct commander of the Carrier.

after that she commanded sqaudrons of carriers as an admairl, the same way any admiral commands their task force/fleet.

Thanks. I was about to ask whether she was a captain at any point while lording over a carrier because I remembered that she might have began as so.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:21 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.

If the MA builds the Sharks to be labour intensive(low automation) and the Lennys to be heavily automated the crew size could be the same regardless of the crew.


Sigs, that is brilliant. Of course it assumes that the normal operation of the Lennys can be highly automated. Or recommended.

One thing seems obvious. With over 60 % of the gene pool being slaves, their version of BuPers is going to have a hard time pulling personnel out of their version of "Caparelli's ass." LOL

Seriously, will slaves have a place aboard a warship? If captured, slavery will be exposed all over again. How educated are the slaves? Do they generally have the ability to serve on a warship?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:27 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:
Losing lots of ships and suffering lots of failed Operations would be even more wasteful. Hopefully they won't have a shortage on either when they emerge from behind the iron curtains.

I gave it a little thought. At any rate, what lines would serve aboard ship? I don't think the MAN would want to seed the ships with COs and XOs with the IQ of the average Solly officer. Especially after having followed their careers and found out how useless they are. The Alpha lines are stated to become the ruling class, yes, so I don't know if in their society that would exclude them from commanding a warship. However, in Manticoran society, Grayson and Andermani the ruling class can be whatever they want. Luckily for them too.

The Beta and Gamma lines are listed as slated to serve the RF, so they are definitely amongst the pool of officers and crew. Yet, if the MA believe in their own rhetoric, then certainly a Beta wouldn't serve as an XO to a Gamma. No?

What is available? Alphas, Betas and Gammas. They are going to be going up against the most experienced Navies of the galaxy. With at least one who has Alpha level intelligence and essentially an undefeated string of victories, Harrington. They cannot afford to fail to at least match up intellectually. Certainly not if their tech fails to match up as well.

They better talk to Tourville before tackling Harrington, and if they send someone weak and he gets his head handed to him and then his replacement and so forth and so on -- and they weren't Alphas, then they are going to have to send Alphas anyway, sooner or later. May as well send the best out of the starting gate.

Initially, I figured at least the Admirals and Captains will be Alphas. But then that leaves the XOs to be Beta or Gamma, who will eventually make Captain or Admiral. It is certainly interesting how it will actually go down.

They better at least have an Alpha going up against Harrington. I can think of several more GA officers that will easily go through the inferior lines.

At any rate, you could very well be closer to the truth and the ships will be commanded and crewed by Betas and Gammas.

They're probably arrogant enough to think their Betas and Gammas will match up. And they may. But if they don't, then by their own logic, they sent Betas and Gammas to do an Alpha's job.



If they were smart they would basically organize their military along traditional lines, make the capabilities rise above the the genetic line they may represent. Saying that all Alpha's are automatically better then all Gamma's leads to all kinds of problems. Maybe the Alpha's are generally all around better then the Gamma's but doesn't mean that a Gamma cannot be just as good as any Alpha. We have seen throughout the series that the slave lines were not stupid, in fact many of the freed slaves were very intelligent maybe equal to or superior to many alphas. Problems arise when a war kicks off because people may see that in another society they won't be subservient because of their genetic line but have the ability to go and do what they please. Having a large % of your population feeling oppressed may not be the best thing for a long lasting society.


If my friend hit her nail on the head, then, by our reality, Harrington's equal can be fashioned out of Gamma or Beta clay, if the conditions, timing and environment is right. But again, that reality would undermine Leonard's, and by extension, Malign philosophy at its core. Each level is supposed to be inherently more capable than the lower and Harrington herself certainly proved that the IQ mods work. And again, she is equal to their own Alphas.

The only light I can see at the end of the MA tunnel is..

If Harrington ≠ Alpha. :lol: :!:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:12 pm

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Posts: 2425
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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.



Sigs wrote:If the MA builds the Sharks to be labour intensive(low automation) and the Lennys to be heavily automated the crew size could be the same regardless of the crew.


Sigs, that is brilliant. Of course it assumes that the normal operation of the Lennys can be highly automated. Or recommended.

One thing seems obvious. With over 60 % of the gene pool being slaves, their version of BuPers is going to have a hard time pulling personnel out of their version of "Caparelli's ass." LOL

Seriously, will slaves have a place aboard a warship? If captured, slavery will be exposed all over again. How educated are the slaves? Do they generally have the ability to serve on a warship?


Ah, the "genetic slaves" of Darius don't see themselves as genetic slaves at all.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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