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Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?

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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by saber964   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:07 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Dauntless wrote:I belive that beached is slang for half pay.

in theory I suppose you could be beached as in removed from ship command but still employed somewhere else, i.e. Vulcan or some other non ship duty but generally it seems to be used for those on half pay.

he failed to properly plan for the fight, and his ship only survived because of an exceptional snotty. in wartime, he might just have gotten a reprimand and temp shore duty for a while as bad things happen in war and no-one can be prepaered for everything, but this was peacetime so he was relived. I believe it was quietly made clear that he would never have another ship command and promotion and anything other then crap assignments would be VERY unlikely.

besides much like honor, master after god of you own ship is what just about every good officer dreams of and often mourns when promoted out of it.

hlaf-pay does not affect time in grade when it comes to promotions, i think, yet it still took years to be promoted to full admiral (no mention of exactly how many, just that he was promoted "some time ago". when we learn that though it was nearly 40 years after the incident, during that time we had the first peep war which had the SKM promoting fighting captains left & right. I do believe he could have come back to service if he had really wanted to, but shame & the help he was being to ONI meant that he didn't try.



After you reach a certain point in your career, you can go on 1/2 pay (I don't remember but I believe it is Senior captain.) After that point you can be placed there because of political reasons, or performance reasons, but it usually indicates that someone doesn't want you in command for some reason, but also doesn't have the proof against you to dismiss you for cause. You continue to accrue seniority and receive time forced promotions, on top of your pay.

Honor and White Haven went on half pay during WoH. White Haven was placed on 1/2 pay several times in his career, as the political winds changed, and Honor 2x. So in the RMN, it's not necessarily a stigma. Bachfitch was considered a well regarded, competent, senior Captain before the incident, but with no political connections. He has them now, so I don't see why he wouldn't be accepted back into the RMN ranks, especially with the RMN's losses.

It probably started as a political weapon and a way to keep the politically connected idiots away from higher command.



Remember how much Janacek dismissed Bachfitch's intelligence information when he found out about who had provided the original information. That was on top of the dismissiveness he already had for Harrington.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:40 pm

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saber964 wrote:

Remember how much Janacek dismissed Bachfitch's intelligence information when he found out about who had provided the original information. That was on top of the dismissiveness he already had for Harrington.


Janacheck was always a political animal. I can see him fundamentally at odds with someone as fundamentally competent as Bachfitch. To Janacheck, people like that were the little people to be put in their place so he could make his way to power.

The fact that Bachfitch wrote up Santino, a well connected idiot, just made him a target for the Political animals in the RMN. He had probably done such things before and the "fighting" RMN establishment has protected him, but this time he screwed up by the numbers and nearly lost his ship.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by ywing14   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:54 pm

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The reason Bachfisch wasn't rehabilitated is because of how long ago the incident occurred and when the war started. If it had occurred during the war I doubt there would have been serious repercussions. But since it was during peace time it ended things. By the time the conflict with haven starts he's already moved on with his life. His situation is totally different from Andrea.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:14 pm

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ywing14 wrote:The reason Bachfisch wasn't rehabilitated is because of how long ago the incident occurred and when the war started. If it had occurred during the war I doubt there would have been serious repercussions. But since it was during peace time it ended things. By the time the conflict with haven starts he's already moved on with his life. His situation is totally different from Andrea.

I find the idea of someone managing to get promoted to admiral without any of the prequisites pretty silly. It’s like putting the guy who has worked at your company the longest, say a manufacturing assistant, in the CFO position because seniority. I’m sure the next shareholder meeting will be interesting.

And a fleet in combat run someone who had never even run a squadron in peace certainly has potential to be really interesting too.

Hey, the other thought is that if you screw up as an LT you’ll be paid for the rest of your life, and I suspect that half full admirals pay is pretty sweet.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:31 pm

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kzt wrote:I find the idea of someone managing to get promoted to admiral without any of the prequisites pretty silly. ...


Given the original "Hornblower in Space" scenario, it is fairly historically accurate for the historical navy the RMN was based on.

It was silly then, and moderately silly in the Honorverse, but there is a lot of "silly" in history and in fiction.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure a LT -- or anyone below a "Post Captain" -- wasn't eligible for half-pay tenure promotions.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:00 am

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kzt wrote:
ywing14 wrote:The reason Bachfisch wasn't rehabilitated is because of how long ago the incident occurred and when the war started. If it had occurred during the war I doubt there would have been serious repercussions. But since it was during peace time it ended things. By the time the conflict with haven starts he's already moved on with his life. His situation is totally different from Andrea.

I find the idea of someone managing to get promoted to admiral without any of the prequisites pretty silly. It’s like putting the guy who has worked at your company the longest, say a manufacturing assistant, in the CFO position because seniority. I’m sure the next shareholder meeting will be interesting.

And a fleet in combat run someone who had never even run a squadron in peace certainly has potential to be really interesting too.

Hey, the other thought is that if you screw up as an LT you’ll be paid for the rest of your life, and I suspect that half full admirals pay is pretty sweet.


You'll get no argument from me about the validity of the system. I agree with you. I see that getting really expensive especially with prolong.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:37 am

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ywing14 wrote:You'll get no argument from me about the validity of the system. I agree with you. I see that getting really expensive especially with prolong.


I don't think it'll ever become a huge problem. There's a natural limit on the number of List Captains - how many ships the RMN has.

Sure, some are skippered by commanders or captain JGs, but List Captains also run fleet auxilaries, fill some staff roles, etc..

So, as of 1905, approximately 1500. The RMN had something like two or three million people in uniform not long after that.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:47 am

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Seems to me as though being on half pay in the Hornblower era would be akin to getting a pension.

I doubt at the time there were any pension provisions for most seafarers who eventually stayed at home due to age or injuries.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:03 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:Seems to me as though being on half pay in the Hornblower era would be akin to getting a pension.

I doubt at the time there were any pension provisions for most seafarers who eventually stayed at home due to age or injuries.



The pay at that time was not all that much even for captains. That was one reason during the Napoleonic Wars and earlier, captured ships were often bought by the British Navy.

The pensions were not all that much. You could live off them (and I get that from reading a lot of fiction of that era) but not really well.

RFC basically adopted the British system. It might not work all that well for Manticore but it was probably an afterthought. Not that well because people probably lived a lot longer if they did not die in combat. Also careers were longer so investments had time to grow.

One of the things not touched on in the books is if they had the equivalent of the 401k's (retirement funds taken while you work and invested for retirement) or anything else.
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Re: Honor's Inner Circle: RSVP?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:04 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Annachie wrote:It wouldn't suprise me to find that a large part of him being unrehabilitated was because of the spying he was doing in Silesia.

And that he's been left "on the beach" to let him still "trade" into the Andi side.


To lend to that, while on 1/2 pay, he continued to gain rank, and was a Admiral (Probably Rear) at the time of WoH.

Given his thoughts at the time about the RMN internal political issues and problems with privilege, what happened to him most likely left a sour taste in his mouth, even though he too believed he earned his fate (he had been suckered into close combat with a superior opponent, and only the actions of a midshipwoman saved his ship. Without her actions, HE would have lost the ship).

The shakeup of 3 wars and several major scandals have winnowed the ranks (and power) of the political officers severely, and the effects of officers like Courvoisier and Harrington at Saganami Island, setting the mold for future officers, has made the RMN a different place than it was 50 years earlier. Given the current climate, if the Queen asked him for his assistance in Silesia, I doubt if he would refuse.


For the record, at the time Bachfisch met Honor in WOH, he was a full admiral. It had been 39 years since he had had Honor as his midshipwoman. So you are probably looking at 50-55 years of accured seniority if seniority starts to accumulate when you join the service. It may be less if seniority starts at the post captain level. So I suspect that he was a full admiral of the green.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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