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Why no Detweiler regular kids?

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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am

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cthia wrote:@JohnRoth. Addressing the subject and link regarding IQ, John. First off, thanks for the link.

The group wrangled with that one for a long time. Lots of grey matter was expended on the subject. As I said, there's a neurosurgeon in the group. Who has a neuroscientist in her family.

She agrees with the absurdity of the idea of genetic intelligence, which they quickly pointed out would fit with many extremists' views if it were so. Like, well, Hitler's master race.

As it was explained to this layman...


You have to watch out for ideology dictating "reality." There were a lot of beliefs that came out of a distaste for the excesses of WW II. Many of those are being overturned today. One example is from historical anthropology: the "pots, not people," dictum says that, when you see cultural artifacts (pots, etc.) moving, it's cultural diffusion or cultural appropriation rather than the movement of people. Modern genetic analysis of old skeletons and so forth is showing that, yes, it's people. Cultural diffusion indeed works occasionally, but most of the time it's a convenient myth to cover up the reality of exactly how bloody-minded our ancestors were in moving into new territories and killing or brutalizing the existing inhabitants.

And that kind of cover-up is characteristic of what happens after a "crisis war" to "insure that this never happens again." It doesn't work long-term, of course.

cthia wrote:
She, they, pointed out that the human brain is an unmolded lump of clay that becomes molded through experiences, interactions and the environment which affects the forming of neural connections. Proper stimulation is very important to ensure intelligence, all else being equal. The brain has to be exercised from infancy, with the proper stimulation. This fact sits center stage why blocks, Legos and toys are important to cognitive development. Absent this set of criteria could result in lower intelligences. IOW, we very well may be a product of our environment.


There are a lot of very qualified people who would dispute that. The "undifferentiated lump of clay" is very similar to Rousseau's "blank slate." It's an influential viewpoint, but it doesn't work. The human brain has a very intricate structure that's there in the fetus long before there's any experience to shape it; various parts come online at different times during childhood. There is a very great amount of experience programming going on, but you could not, for example, learn language unless there were pre-existing brain structures that could be programmed by experience.

That experience does have effects on the small-scale structure of various areas, but the large-scale structure is there first.

Chimpanzees, for example, cannot be taught language in any realistic sense. They can't learn any form of tool-making more intricate than stripping the twigs off a branch so they can stick it into a termite mound, and their throwing skills are pitiful. The brain structures needed for those activities simply aren't there.

cthia wrote:
I'd like to know what she'd have to say about defective genes producing lower intelligence since she shared her study of autism which yields some very intelligent people, although within certain parameters. In autistic kids, a certain section of the brain is more active.


"Autism" is an umbrella diagnosis: there are a lot of different forms of it, and they have little in common other than extreme difficulty in handling social situations. What used to be called Asperger's Syndrome has little in common with the form of autism that Eric Flint outlines with Francisca Simöes. That form exists, although he moved it from around age 2 or 3 to much later.

cthia wrote:In a nutshell, experiences encourage or hinder the road to intelligence by releasing endorphins. Happiness releases endorphins. They discussed the possibility that the lack of endorphins could be responsible for mental illness. A child growing up in an intensely abusive family completely devoid of proper simulation may experience a lack of endorphins. Endorphins are addicting, and exposed to them early on as an infant and nourished can open the road to intelligence.


Child abuse is certainly one of the ways of limiting a child's potential.

cthia wrote:
However, they did discuss ways that the MAlign could have found to genetically influence intelligence, as a side effect. They could have found ways to increase synaptic plasticity. Axonal coupling. Synaptogenesis, focus, etc., etc., and much much more. They could even have found a way to encourage use of more of the brain. Which involved discussions way outside of my brain.

See this post


The hyper-intelligent person or race is a common trope in SF. I don't usually worry about the amount of arm-waving required. The question I ask is how it fits into the author's intent in writing the story. RFC has discussed that intent a number of times.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by Peregrinator   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:24 am

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JohnRoth wrote:Considering all this, I seriously doubt that the Mesan geneticists working on the Star lines would have left any defective genes.

That is my thought too. An incestuous relationship presents an increased risk of a genetic disorder - as a brother and sister could both be carriers of a recessive disorder. But my guess is that there aren't any such carriers among the Mesan star lines; the only risk is of a new mutation (since there are no likely no carriers, even uniparental disomy - getting both copies of an allele from one parent - is not a risk).

But also, if marriages are arranged among those who are good genetic matches for each other, it's unlikely that siblings would be matched with one another. A genetic study would show them to be siblings and they would not be allowed to marry. Even the "benign" Mesan Alignment would not allow that.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:15 pm

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I wouldn't be suprised if DSM VI breaks Heller Syndrome back away from Autism. (Francesca)

Dertweiler's kids seem to be skirting right on the edge of Anti Social Personality disorder as it is. Breeding with a sibing has a good chance of creating a real monster.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:19 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:She, they, pointed out that the human brain is an unmolded lump of clay that becomes molded through experiences, interactions and the environment which affects the forming of neural connections. Proper stimulation is very important to ensure intelligence, all else being equal. The brain has to be exercised from infancy, with the proper stimulation. This fact sits center stage why blocks, Legos and toys are important to cognitive development. Absent this set of criteria could result in lower intelligences. IOW, we very well may be a product of our environment.


JohnRoth wrote:There are a lot of very qualified people who would dispute that. The "undifferentiated lump of clay" is very similar to Rousseau's "blank slate." It's an influential viewpoint, but it doesn't work. The human brain has a very intricate structure that's there in the fetus long before there's any experience to shape it; various parts come online at different times during childhood. There is a very great amount of experience programming going on, but you could not, for example, learn language unless there were pre-existing brain structures that could be programmed by experience.

That experience does have effects on the small-scale structure of various areas, but the large-scale structure is there first.

Chimpanzees, for example, cannot be taught language in any realistic sense. They can't learn any form of tool-making more intricate than stripping the twigs off a branch so they can stick it into a termite mound, and their throwing skills are pitiful. The brain structures needed for those activities simply aren't there.


She isn't denying the existing complex structure. That is a given. What she is saying is that complex structure has to be molded. Was Einstein inherently any different than the rest of us, or was he conditioned by certain experiences and teachings during his formative years? She believes that all people have the potential to be geniuses, all else being equal (healthy brain, body). What road would lead to that genius? What stimulations and experiences and at what age? I remember this...

"It is much harder to learn a language the older one gets. It is much harder to learn a foreign language the older one gets. Exposing the mind to it early on forces the forming of specific patterns of neural connections more conduscive to the grasping of language. And a more robust structure overall."

They talked about being exposed to the rudiments of walking early on with the help of a baby walker. So that an infant can explore balance and the logic involved with the development of such a natural human skill, and this timely effect on neural connections, as opposed to a child withheld in a playpen because of busy and/or lazy and or misinformed parents. What about being taught the skill of riding a bike as early as possible. Museums, aquariums. Exposure to the stars. Being taught to count early on.

The brain is like a muscle that must be exercised and trained. Consider this...

Let A = Birth IQ
Let Z = MaxIQ (genius)

Let AS = All Stimuli (Sound, music, the beach, colors, toys, people, cars, airplanes, pets, etc., etc.
Let AK = All Knowledge (various forms of teachings.)

Let's say that every A has the potential to reach Z.

Infant A has 10 % exposure to all variables...
Infant B has no exposure...
Infant C has 75 % exposure...

If these exposures are timely...
If these exposures are untimely...

And of course, there are going to be exceptions. Like the really poor kid who was inspired by the innocuous, insignificant yellow play toy given to him by a stranger that jumpstarted his inner imagination and initiated an explosion of neural connections.

In a nutshell, of course.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by Annachie   » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:09 am

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I suspect you're friend has oversimplified that lump of clay.

I suspect it's more a lump made up of a whole bunch of different types of clay.
Some have a little more of one type, some more of another.
Some just less outright.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:35 am

cthia
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Annachie wrote:I suspect you're friend has oversimplified that lump of clay.

I suspect it's more a lump made up of a whole bunch of different types of clay.
Some have a little more of one type, some more of another.
Some just less outright.


They were watering it down for the layman in me. In response to my questions and in consideration for my aching brain. You ever sit in the midst of a gaggle of inspired doctors and surgeons talking shop?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by Annachie   » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:50 am

Annachie
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cthia wrote:
Annachie wrote:I suspect you're friend has oversimplified that lump of clay.

I suspect it's more a lump made up of a whole bunch of different types of clay.
Some have a little more of one type, some more of another.
Some just less outright.


They were watering it down for the layman in me. In response to my questions and in consideration for my aching brain. You ever sit in the midst of a gaggle of inspired doctors and surgeons talking shop?
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:30 pm

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Annachie wrote:
cthia wrote:I suspect you're friend has oversimplified that lump of clay.

I suspect it's more a lump made up of a whole bunch of different types of clay.
Some have a little more of one type, some more of another.
Some just less outright.


They were watering it down for the layman in me. In response to my questions and in consideration for my aching brain. You ever sit in the midst of a gaggle of inspired doctors and surgeons talking shop?
:)[/quote]

Trying to impart motives and mental conditions when not having time to really get into it is a violation of ethics because it tends to be wrong.

The Dets seem to actually be mentally healthy BY THEIR STANDARDS. They are different from each other, which is good when dealing with clones...although we should note that clones are not really identical twins.

Dr. Melissa Clearfield of Whitman College did a study comparing monozygotic twins (identical twins carried in separate sacs during pregnancy) and found that in a spectrum between fraternal and identical twins they averaged around sixty percent towards the identical. (I read it because Dr. Clearfield happens to be my oldest daughter).

Anyway, we have seen that the brother/clones are different from each other. We know that Collin at least has children and it is likely at least some of the others do.

That they believe they are doing the right thing is not abnormal. They have been taught this. An awful lot of soldiers have done nasty things in the service of their countries. And it has happened in armies all around the world.

We can look at them and decide they are mad but wanting to improve the human race is not necessarily bad. Note the differences between John Lennon's "Imagine" and the reality of communism. Yet people still believe in it and (aside from a couple of my old professors) are probably not insane.

And the same goes for most belief systems, whether religious or not.

Had the Dets simply worked to modify the Code somewhat...which did change...they could have gotten a real lot of what they wanted. The goal was not bad but the means got twisted along the way.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by ywing14   » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:40 pm

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With they exception of Beowulf, and it is really more the timing of the explosions. I really don't view anything the Detweilers have done out of spite. Yeah their tactics have killed lots of people, especially innocent people but they've also successfully advanced their cause through them.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by cthia   » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:44 pm

cthia
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Hmm, with all of the sperm Detweiler anonymously donated across the galaxy, wouldn't it be ironic if one of his bastard children ended up being exemplary officers in the RMN, or an affiliate navy? And ended up kicking the living excretion out of the MAlign?

Beaten by his own blood.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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