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[Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchies

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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Fireflair   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:04 pm

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My only question about the trade debate is concerning Haven. MWW has discussed in the books about the Manticorian MM fleet taking advantage of the newly opened Haven territories as a way to keep busy now that the SL is not available to them for employment. Granted this is canon now.

However... Was Haven not conducting any trade between it's systems before the GA was formed? I mean, surely they didn't miss a chance to keep their own internal economic engine churning along. Yes, I know, they're going to start trading with Manticore and it's associated systems, which they weren't doing before. But Haven should already have a merchant marine of their own which will be eager to expand into Manticore's space.

Hell, when Manticore and Haven were at war with each other I am certain there was a fair amount of third party trading going on. Manticore and Haven aren't trading, that's fine. But Manticore and System X are trading. System X buys stuff from Manticore, then Haven buys from System X at a 10% price bump. Not to mention authentic black market groups running directly between Haven and Manticore...

The SL, by contrast, didn't have much of a merchant marine of it's own. I can't remember the text numbers, but more than a third travelled %100 on Manticore ships, Half %50 and less than a quarter avoided them all together, or something like that. So that was a significant market, as we all know, for the MMM. I don't see how Haven's space could possible make up for even a significant dent in the loss of the SL carrying trade.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:21 pm

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Fireflair wrote:My only question about the trade debate is concerning Haven. MWW has discussed in the books about the Manticorian MM fleet taking advantage of the newly opened Haven territories as a way to keep busy now that the SL is not available to them for employment. Granted this is canon now.

However... Was Haven not conducting any trade between it's systems before the GA was formed? I mean, surely they didn't miss a chance to keep their own internal economic engine churning along. Yes, I know, they're going to start trading with Manticore and it's associated systems, which they weren't doing before. But Haven should already have a merchant marine of their own which will be eager to expand into Manticore's space.

Hell, when Manticore and Haven were at war with each other I am certain there was a fair amount of third party trading going on. Manticore and Haven aren't trading, that's fine. But Manticore and System X are trading. System X buys stuff from Manticore, then Haven buys from System X at a 10% price bump. Not to mention authentic black market groups running directly between Haven and Manticore...

The SL, by contrast, didn't have much of a merchant marine of it's own. I can't remember the text numbers, but more than a third travelled %100 on Manticore ships, Half %50 and less than a quarter avoided them all together, or something like that. So that was a significant market, as we all know, for the MMM. I don't see how Haven's space could possible make up for even a significant dent in the loss of the SL carrying trade.

For decades Haven had an Anti-Tech Command & Control economy ( IE Any communist country You wish to name)

With the New ROH that will change they will be importing modern equipment - Think Grayson 20 years ago

Nimitz
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:47 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:The RMMM carried an enormous percentage of SL and Transtellar cargoes before Lacoon ...
PeterZ wrote:
That shift means the Core World carry trade available for the RMMM will diminish. They can make that up by taking the bulk trade into the Core Worlds from beyond.
Weird Harold wrote:
you missed the point that the RMMM was already carrying a large percentage of that out-system cargo into the League under contract to transtellars. they aren't going to pick up much new business from that quarter.

That's just it, I don't believe the RMMM did carry much of that Protectorate trade directly. The Transstellars would not have let the Manties get close to their private fiefdoms. Who knows what sort of PR problems those Manties could create if they saw what the Transstellars actually did to those worlds? Much more likely smaller freighters carried the cargo to a transshipment hub and the consolidated with the cargo from other freighters onto a larger Manty freighter into the Core Worlds.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:59 am

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PeterZ wrote:That's just it, I don't believe the RMMM did carry much of that Protectorate trade directly. The Transstellars would not have let the Manties get close to their private fiefdoms. Who knows what sort of PR problems those Manties could create if they saw what the Transstellars actually did to those worlds?


1: I doubt that every ship/company in the RMMM is lily-white and cares about human rights violations. A large percentage are going to be "all about the Benjamins" and will haul whatever the shipper will pay for and not worry about how the shipper acquired the cargo.

2: If you were a transtellar shipping bulk cargo into the SL, who would you rather have raise a fuss about your human rights violations? A neobarb everyone thinks is full of itself, or somebody from the SL with connections IN the SL?

3: I'm sure there are places that would prefer the corrupt interstellar shipper like Jessyk and Kalakainos(sp) handle their cargoes, 'cause they can be bribed or blackmailed into quietude. The RMMM never has and never will carry 100% of the verge and protectorates' shipping.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:11 am

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Given that what was going on was already broadly - and often quite specifically - known to anybody who cared to pay attention, like Manties and people in neighbouring regions that hadn't yet been swallowed up by the Protectorate system, I can't see PR being an issue any of these companies were much concerned with. More accurately, it wasn't an issue they didn't already have sown up tight.

Now it is possible that there were places even the least-ethical Manty didn't care to trade into, but I wouldn't count on there being many.

PeterZ wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:The RMMM carried an enormous percentage of SL and Transtellar cargoes before Lacoon ...
PeterZ wrote:
That shift means the Core World carry trade available for the RMMM will diminish. They can make that up by taking the bulk trade into the Core Worlds from beyond.
Weird Harold wrote:
you missed the point that the RMMM was already carrying a large percentage of that out-system cargo into the League under contract to transtellars. they aren't going to pick up much new business from that quarter.

That's just it, I don't believe the RMMM did carry much of that Protectorate trade directly. The Transstellars would not have let the Manties get close to their private fiefdoms. Who knows what sort of PR problems those Manties could create if they saw what the Transstellars actually did to those worlds? Much more likely smaller freighters carried the cargo to a transshipment hub and the consolidated with the cargo from other freighters onto a larger Manty freighter into the Core Worlds.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:57 am

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Several issues here that people seem to be overlooking:

1) higher accelerations translate into negligible differences in transit times - hours at most, on trips lasting weeks. Very little time is actually spent accelerating on any given transit, and you would probably reap greater returns from better maintenance of existing equipment than from upgrading it.

2) the Grayson-style compensator doesn't magically multiply the acceleration produced by a given set of nodes. Even if a civilian version became available, you would need to install more powerful, and therefore more costly and complex, impellers to exploit it. And pay the increased operating costs thereof, for little if any return.

3) everybody seems to be forgetting that a major reason most shipping eschews the upper hyper bands is risk: the higher you go, the less likely you are to arrive in one piece, and the better trained and more alert your crews have to be to achieve that. Even warships never ride the ragged edge of their drive capabilities on routine passages. The streak drive will make no difference in that; on the contrary, it opens access to even _more_ dangerous bands which I wouldn't be surprised to learn even very few couriers will want to enter on a routine basis. [The Detweilers may have been getting their mail faster than anyone else, but one has to wonder what percentage of it didn't arrive. And to what degree their being caught short in various ways was due to the 'want of a message']

4) I may have missed something, but I don't see any reason to believe that streak hypergenerators do anything to ease the transitions between bands everyone else can already reach. What they've done is to finally make it possible to cross the iota and kappa walls. Something that will be of no interest whatever to those who already regard crossing the delta or epsilon wall to be an unjustifiable risk. The nature of that breakthrough hasn't been explained, but then neither has the reason why hypergenerators that can cross the epsilon wall are so much more complex than those that don't.

The breakthrough that _would_ make a difference to merchant shipping operations is the improvement of rad shielding to make it economically feasible to move cargo at 0.7c local rather than 0.5c or less. And it wouldn't surprise me if that, or a path to it, is indeed buried somewhere in the new technologies introduced in the last decade.

Dauntless wrote:IT is well know that even before manticore started improving its compensators that merchies were slow, both in normal space and hyper.

I'm, wondering if now that the wars are over some merchies might start considering speed upgrades. now obviously they aren't going to mount top of the line Mil spec compensators but average speed i've seen listed for a normal merchie is about 200g. though i think the passenger liners Hauptman used, particularly for silesa were more like 400 but they were an abnormality.

Time is money and while a rise of 200 to 300g might only shave a day of the trip to hyper, surely that along with sightly improved hypertech, the non classified parts of the streak drive research maybe, though just stronger rad shielding would probably do. might take a week or 2 off journeys.

over a year/2 that has to improve profits. especially if they start serving the newly free verge worlds.

i undrestand it all comes down to money but especially the compensators should be cheap enough now after 20 years of research.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:15 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:
Fireflair wrote:My only question about the trade debate is concerning Haven. MWW has discussed in the books about the Manticorian MM fleet taking advantage of the newly opened Haven territories as a way to keep busy now that the SL is not available to them for employment. Granted this is canon now.

However... Was Haven not conducting any trade between it's systems before the GA was formed? I mean, surely they didn't miss a chance to keep their own internal economic engine churning along. Yes, I know, they're going to start trading with Manticore and it's associated systems, which they weren't doing before. But Haven should already have a merchant marine of their own which will be eager to expand into Manticore's space.

Hell, when Manticore and Haven were at war with each other I am certain there was a fair amount of third party trading going on. Manticore and Haven aren't trading, that's fine. But Manticore and System X are trading. System X buys stuff from Manticore, then Haven buys from System X at a 10% price bump. Not to mention authentic black market groups running directly between Haven and Manticore...

The SL, by contrast, didn't have much of a merchant marine of it's own. I can't remember the text numbers, but more than a third travelled %100 on Manticore ships, Half %50 and less than a quarter avoided them all together, or something like that. So that was a significant market, as we all know, for the MMM. I don't see how Haven's space could possible make up for even a significant dent in the loss of the SL carrying trade.

For decades Haven had an Anti-Tech Command & Control economy ( IE Any communist country You wish to name)

With the New ROH that will change they will be importing modern equipment - Think Grayson 20 years ago

Nimitz


Not quite. They weren't really anti-tech. What happened was they screwed over their educational system to the point where it was no longer producing the scientists and researchers needed to produce cutting edge tech. So they had to import what they could of more advanced tech. After the war started, they were trying to upgrade their warships with Solly tech.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:25 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:


Not quite. They weren't really anti-tech. What happened was they screwed over their educational system to the point where it was no longer producing the scientists and researchers needed to produce cutting edge tech. So they had to import what they could of more advanced tech. After the war started, they were trying to upgrade their warships with Solly tech.

Don

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It was deliberate The MA did not want an obsticle in the Haven Sector

Nimitz
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:21 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:It was deliberate The MA did not want an obsticle in the Haven Sector

Nimitz


But the point is that it wasn't deiberate on the part of the Peeps. It was the Malign who had the intention, not Haven...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: [Spolier] impact of new compensator and Hyper on Merchie
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:11 pm

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Posts: 206
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n7axw wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:It was deliberate The MA did not want an obsticle in the Haven Sector

Nimitz


But the point is that it wasn't deiberate on the part of the Peeps. It was the Malign who had the intention, not Haven...

Don

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And that has been the MA's stock in trade for 600 Years - Get other people to do things that furthers the MA's own agenda

Unilaterly disarm yourself and send us your Nukes so when the time is right the MA will target You

Nimitz
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