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[spoiler] The future of missile combat

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[spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:49 am

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Now that the SL has shown that a DDM or MDM can be made if you willing to build them big enough and use jettionable sections, I wonder if SDMs are going to dissapear completely.

the GA has already shown that a viable SD nowdays basiclly has to be pod design. so i wonder if we are going to see a similar change and tonnage creep for below the wall.

nothing that technodyne did (unlike Manticore) was particularly clever, though they do get points for finding a way to make it work without the baffle, it does the job and while it didn't completely fix the range imbalance at least the SL ships didn't have to get quite as close.

Many people have said that as pirates prefer smaller ships then DDMs are not a likely threat the GA/new SL/newly independent worlds' ships will face.

But with how slow a merchie is to begin with, if you've got double missile range then you might be willing to loose 50G accel for a ship big enough to tube fire a couple of catahphract knock offs. might be a bit slower when trying to escape but given the accel of a GA ship then the odds of a pirate managing to flee are slim to start with.

what is true for a pirate might be even more true for warlords or MA sponsored raiders.
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:37 am

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Dauntless wrote:Now that the SL has shown that a DDM or MDM can be made if you willing to build them big enough and use jettionable sections, I wonder if SDMs are going to dissapear completely.

the GA has already shown that a viable SD nowdays basiclly has to be pod design. so i wonder if we are going to see a similar change and tonnage creep for below the wall.

nothing that technodyne did (unlike Manticore) was particularly clever, though they do get points for finding a way to make it work without the baffle, it does the job and while it didn't completely fix the range imbalance at least the SL ships didn't have to get quite as close.

Many people have said that as pirates prefer smaller ships then DDMs are not a likely threat the GA/new SL/newly independent worlds' ships will face.

But with how slow a merchie is to begin with, if you've got double missile range then you might be willing to loose 50G accel for a ship big enough to tube fire a couple of catahphract knock offs. might be a bit slower when trying to escape but given the accel of a GA ship then the odds of a pirate managing to flee are slim to start with.

what is true for a pirate might be even more true for warlords or MA sponsored raiders.


Cataphracts are going to be at a premium for several years to come. Why use one, when a pinnace with a chain gun can threaten pretty much any merchies? Remember pirates don't like to waste a missile, they have to pay for it out of their share of the spoils.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:05 am

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point and yes i spoke mainly of pirates but think what are warships going to look like. an ex SL world that goes warlord (yes the GA will probably stomp on them but what might they be up against.)

now assuming a warlord is crazy enough that he thinks he can fight the manties then he is going to want at least something resembling his own roland/sag C. catahrpacht knock offs are easy to make compared to a mk 16/23 with the baffle tech.

is he really going to settle for SDMs?

so what sort of size would a non GA DD have to be to tube fire a catchpract or similar dual drive missile? the roalnd carries about 240 mk 16s and is half again the size of its non DDM sibling (wolfhound class) which was itself bigger then anyone outside the haven sector was building DDs. would the enemy settle for less ammo to keep size down or would they build bigger in the hopes that the extra mass could be used for extra missile defence and more energy weapons that would balance the missile problems.
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:41 am

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Dauntless wrote:point and yes i spoke mainly of pirates but think what are warships going to look like. an ex SL world that goes warlord (yes the GA will probably stomp on them but what might they be up against.)

now assuming a warlord is crazy enough that he thinks he can fight the manties then he is going to want at least something resembling his own roland/sag C. catahrpacht knock offs are easy to make compared to a mk 16/23 with the baffle tech.

is he really going to settle for SDMs?

so what sort of size would a non GA DD have to be to tube fire a catchpract or similar dual drive missile? the roalnd carries about 240 mk 16s and is half again the size of its non DDM sibling (wolfhound class) which was itself bigger then anyone outside the haven sector was building DDs. would the enemy settle for less ammo to keep size down or would they build bigger in the hopes that the extra mass could be used for extra missile defence and more energy weapons that would balance the missile problems.


The 188 Kton Roland is the smallest unit we've seen firing CA class missiles. As far as legacy tech goes, the smallest CAs are supposed to be in the 200 Kton range. The 223 Kton Truncheon Class is the smallest "modern" CA design mentioned so far, and only has a broadside of 5 launchers (With 5 Lasers nd 3 Grasers). Nixing either the Grasers or lasers would allow an extra 3 launchers, while the hull size is probably maximized with the 225.75 Kton Telmach class's 10 launchers and 2 (little) lasers.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:29 pm

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Dauntless wrote:Now that the SL has shown that a DDM or MDM can be made if you willing to build them big enough and use jettionable sections, I wonder if SDMs are going to dissapear completely.


Nope. SDMs like the DD/LAC-class LERMs are cheap, almost as long ranged as a Cataphract-A without ballistic phase, and small enough that a Pirate doesn't need to split the spoils with several thousand crew shares.

For a Pirate's (or privateer's) needs, a Viper anti-LAC sized missile is all he needs (or even a MK-31 CM).

IIRC, a BC sized ship is required to fire Cataphracts internally, and even then the warheads are downsized one class. A CA/BC that can only do DD/CL scale damage isn't going to be much use even with a range advantage over peer opponents.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:17 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dauntless wrote:Now that the SL has shown that a DDM or MDM can be made if you willing to build them big enough and use jettionable sections, I wonder if SDMs are going to dissapear completely.


Nope. SDMs like the DD/LAC-class LERMs are cheap, almost as long ranged as a Cataphract-A without ballistic phase, and small enough that a Pirate doesn't need to split the spoils with several thousand crew shares.

For a Pirate's (or privateer's) needs, a Viper anti-LAC sized missile is all he needs (or even a MK-31 CM).

IIRC, a BC sized ship is required to fire Cataphracts internally, and even then the warheads are downsized one class. A CA/BC that can only do DD/CL scale damage isn't going to be much use even with a range advantage over peer opponents.



CAs can fire them, but in the mixed situations we've seen, there hadn't been enough missiles to arm both the BCs and the CAs with more than a couple rounds each - so the focus was placed on arming the BCs.

The problem with this whole discussion is none of these missiles have proliferated yet, nor will in quantity for some time; every nation has stocks and stocks of 3 minute single drive missiles they will be selling off before they sell even 1 Cataphract or Mk 36 to someone that is NOT a fully trusted party.

Now, if we're discussing 1933, Yes, the cataphract will have proliferated, and the Mk 36 will as well. Pod launched Capacitor MDM tech probably will be be on the market, but not mk 16s, unless the RMN has had another quantum leap in warfighting capability. And any MDM pod will still be considered too expensive for a pirate to waste on a merchie.

And in 1933, Frontline warfighter tech in the GA will have produced at least 1 (if not more) evolutionary designs on the current hardware, and Rolands/Sac-Cs will be 2nd tier units.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:08 pm

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:ugeek: If I had to guess look for
multi warhead versions of all current versions including cm's

Nimtz
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:21 pm

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Theemile wrote:The problem with this whole discussion is none of these missiles have proliferated yet, nor will in quantity for some time; every nation has stocks and stocks of 3 minute single drive missiles they will be selling off before they sell even 1 Cataphract or Mk 36 to someone that is NOT a fully trusted party.


That and the OP brought the tech down to pirate levels and MDMs are NOT in the foreseeable future for anything short of commerce raiding by a first or second rank Navy. True Pirates and most Privateers don't have the cash to field warships big enough for MDMs or Multi-stage missiles, when their normal prey can't stand up to PDLC lasers and shoulder fired SAM-sized missiles. They don't need or want to destroy their targets, because there's no profit in scrap metal fragments spread across a solar system.

If I were a pirate as of the end of UH, I'd be looking for something like FSV Charles Ward so I could surround a target with the native half-squadron of shrike-class LACs and have the cargo space to take the pick of a victim's cargo and/or life support for extra prize crews and boarding parties. Or just a LAC support module for a freighter.

LACs of any age are more dangerous than pinnaces and five or six times faster than a pirate's normal prey. They're longer ranged than pinnaces, too.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:25 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote::ugeek: If I had to guess look for
multi warhead versions of all current versions including cm's

Nimtz


How? - CMs use their wedges to kill missiles, they have no warhead per say.

The largest part of all shipkiller munitions is the multiple lasing rods (3-10m long depending on the class of the missile.) Current missiles carry 3 (DD/CL), 6 (CA/BC) or 10 (Capital) lasing rods per missile to aim the power from the nuclear warhead. Having more nukes is pointless unless you are advocating returning to the use of contact nukes, which the laser head has pretty much placed in the grave.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: [spoiler] The future of missile combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:33 pm

Theemile
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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:The problem with this whole discussion is none of these missiles have proliferated yet, nor will in quantity for some time; every nation has stocks and stocks of 3 minute single drive missiles they will be selling off before they sell even 1 Cataphract or Mk 36 to someone that is NOT a fully trusted party.


That and the OP brought the tech down to pirate levels and MDMs are NOT in the foreseeable future for anything short of commerce raiding by a first or second rank Navy. True Pirates and most Privateers don't have the cash to field warships big enough for MDMs or Multi-stage missiles, when their normal prey can't stand up to PDLC lasers and shoulder fired SAM-sized missiles. They don't need or want to destroy their targets, because there's no profit in scrap metal fragments spread across a solar system.

If I were a pirate as of the end of UH, I'd be looking for something like FSV Charles Ward so I could surround a target with the native half-squadron of shrike-class LACs and have the cargo space to take the pick of a victim's cargo and/or life support for extra prize crews and boarding parties. Or just a LAC support module for a freighter.

LACs of any age are more dangerous than pinnaces and five or six times faster than a pirate's normal prey. They're longer ranged than pinnaces, too.


So true. Getting your hands on 5-6 outdated LACS should be relatively cheap and easy, and enough time in a shipyard with a torch should be able to make any merchie into poor man's (inefficient) LAC carrier. (I'd personally look for an old Collier as my mothership, but one takes what one gets.)

As long as there aren't any real warships around to cry to, any Merchie who sees 3-4 pirate wedges light up and tell it to prepare to be boarded, will heave to without having a weapon fired at it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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