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Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships

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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue May 29, 2018 10:33 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Then cycle them through in appropriate groupings. Not giving at least a cadre serious naval training is definitely NOT a good thing.


The Torch military has ties to the Beowulf military--specifically the Biological Survey Corps--and some Manticoran loaners and/or immigrants in their navy. Given the interstellar cooperation in the establishment of the Kingdom of Torch, I'd be spectacularly un-surprised if there weren't some Havenite and Mayan exchange programs in operation as well.

As a member of the GA, I would also expect slots in the RHN, BSDF/BSC, RMN, GSN, MARSN, and Erewhon military academies or officer training programs and fleets. I'd also expect "loaners" from all allied Navies.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Helen Zilwiki and Paolo De Abruzzi(?) in KTN uniforms at some point in the future--or at least loaner service with the KTN.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 29, 2018 10:50 pm

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Side thought, how much of the Mesan population will emigrate to Torch? How many of outright slaves will want to start somewhere fresh? Sure, Mesa will now make opportunities available to them, but they still have very little resources in a very developed world. Many will find making their future in an undeveloped world a more appealing proposition.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 29, 2018 11:21 pm

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kzt wrote:You fail to realize how tiny Torch is. IIRC, it's total population is on the order of 100K. And I doubt that a plan that calls for shutting down the entire Torch navy for 4 years is conducive to an aggressive pursuit of the MA by the Torch navy.


Textev for this assertion? I'm not trying to be snarky here, but my impression for population of Torch is in the range of 4 million... which is still small for the population of a planet. Unless I am mistaken, here were several million slaves on Torch at the time of the revolt, and that Torch has been experiencing heavy immigration ever since.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by saber964   » Wed May 30, 2018 11:03 am

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n7axw wrote:
kzt wrote:You fail to realize how tiny Torch is. IIRC, it's total population is on the order of 100K. And I doubt that a plan that calls for shutting down the entire Torch navy for 4 years is conducive to an aggressive pursuit of the MA by the Torch navy.


Textev for this assertion? I'm not trying to be snarky here, but my impression for population of Torch is in the range of 4 million... which is still small for the population of a planet. Unless I am mistaken, here were several million slaves on Torch at the time of the revolt, and that Torch has been experiencing heavy immigration ever since.

Don

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Nope Torches population is around four million and growing at a rate of four to five thousand immigrants per week.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 30, 2018 11:22 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Then cycle them through in appropriate groupings. Not giving at least a cadre serious naval training is definitely NOT a good thing.


The Torch military has ties to the Beowulf military--specifically the Biological Survey Corps--and some Manticoran loaners and/or immigrants in their navy. Given the interstellar cooperation in the establishment of the Kingdom of Torch, I'd be spectacularly un-surprised if there weren't some Havenite and Mayan exchange programs in operation as well.

As a member of the GA, I would also expect slots in the RHN, BSDF/BSC, RMN, GSN, MARSN, and Erewhon military academies or officer training programs and fleets. I'd also expect "loaners" from all allied Navies.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Helen Zilwiki and Paolo De Abruzzi(?) in KTN uniforms at some point in the future--or at least loaner service with the KTN.


From Cauldron of Ghosts, both Manticore and Haven have sent command groups to assist Torch in creating a command structure for it's military. It was briefly mentioned in a single scene, as the RMN group was already in place when the Havenite group arrived, and they were actively planning on how to engage and integrate the Havenites into the Torch command structure.

As soon as the SLN situation settles down, I can foresee Torch getting an influx of several thousand Beowulf/Manticorian/Havenite sailors and marines with Slave backgrounds being seconded to the Torch navy from their home navies.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by PeterZ   » Wed May 30, 2018 11:33 am

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kzt wrote:You fail to realize how tiny Torch is. IIRC, it's total population is on the order of 100K. And I doubt that a plan that calls for shutting down the entire Torch navy for 4 years is conducive to an aggressive pursuit of the MA by the Torch navy.
n7axw wrote:
Textev for this assertion? I'm not trying to be snarky here, but my impression for population of Torch is in the range of 4 million... which is still small for the population of a planet. Unless I am mistaken, here were several million slaves on Torch at the time of the revolt, and that Torch has been experiencing heavy immigration ever since.

Don

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saber964 wrote:
Nope Torches population is around four million and growing at a rate of four to five thousand immigrants per week.

That's gonna grow real quick once Mesan ex-slaves and Seccies decide to really star over fresh.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:14 pm

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Torch is trying to expand it's navy but from what we saw the last time Torch appeared in the books, they have a long way to go before they can start fielding DDs and cruisers. They do have the PRHinE ships BUTthose are getting older and stale at a very fast rate. At this point, they would be better off tradeing them to Maya or Erwhon as a materials downpayment on something new out of the Erwhon yards...in the DD and Crusier ranges.

Nobody at Torch or Maya know they are rigged with remote destruct units but they are older, heavily used PRH ships that were modified by "Mesa" and while possbily better than older SLN ships of the same size they are in much worse condition.

While Torch apparently has a lot of potential in pharmaceuticals and are shipping now to external buyers, they don't have much- that we can tell- in other industries. Just exactly what even 4 million ex-slaves are doing isn't clear. They have a lot of incentive to develop local industry, they "just" need all sorts of investment in equipment, training etc to develop an industrial base to create a basic manufacturing and service platform to create stuff locally instead of importing everything. Sure, they would probably love to have several million former Mesan Seccies and Slaves to add to the work force but they are going to need a lot of help training them. That level of numbers would probably swamp Torch's ability to house, feed and cloth all of them for quite some time.

The Mesan Navy ships are of currently unknown -to us- value. They are possibly state-of-the-art for Mesa via Technodyne but unless there is something they have (other than possible Alignment remote destruct devices hidden in them) they aren't going to be worth any more than SLN ships of the same classes. So, do you ship them to Manticore or Haven and run them through the breakers or do you sell them off to any number of Systems who are discovering they are now independent and don't have to rely/fear the FF & OFS as a source of punishment or perhaps to Systems leaving the SL who need a pre-fab navy....the just also will need the people to operate that navy.

All of that is slighly better than just blowing them up as Honor had done to all the ships and facilities around Sol. Scrap for recycling rather than debris exiting the system would be preferable. The thing is, whatever new government goes into existence on Mesa, they would have a real need for at least some of those ships even if it could be quite dubious to keep the existing MSN people to be the majority of the Navy.
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:45 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Torch is trying to expand it's navy but from what we saw the last time Torch appeared in the books, they have a long way to go before they can start fielding DDs and cruisers. They do have the PRHinE ships BUTthose are getting older and stale at a very fast rate. At this point, they would be better off tradeing them to Maya or Erwhon as a materials downpayment on something new out of the Erwhon yards...in the DD and Crusier ranges.

Nobody at Torch or Maya know they are rigged with remote destruct units but they are older, heavily used PRH ships that were modified by "Mesa" and while possbily better than older SLN ships of the same size they are in much worse condition.

While Torch apparently has a lot of potential in pharmaceuticals and are shipping now to external buyers, they don't have much- that we can tell- in other industries. Just exactly what even 4 million ex-slaves are doing isn't clear. They have a lot of incentive to develop local industry, they "just" need all sorts of investment in equipment, training etc to develop an industrial base to create a basic manufacturing and service platform to create stuff locally instead of importing everything. Sure, they would probably love to have several million former Mesan Seccies and Slaves to add to the work force but they are going to need a lot of help training them. That level of numbers would probably swamp Torch's ability to house, feed and cloth all of them for quite some time.

The Mesan Navy ships are of currently unknown -to us- value. They are possibly state-of-the-art for Mesa via Technodyne but unless there is something they have (other than possible Alignment remote destruct devices hidden in them) they aren't going to be worth any more than SLN ships of the same classes. So, do you ship them to Manticore or Haven and run them through the breakers or do you sell them off to any number of Systems who are discovering they are now independent and don't have to rely/fear the FF & OFS as a source of punishment or perhaps to Systems leaving the SL who need a pre-fab navy....the just also will need the people to operate that navy.

All of that is slighly better than just blowing them up as Honor had done to all the ships and facilities around Sol. Scrap for recycling rather than debris exiting the system would be preferable. The thing is, whatever new government goes into existence on Mesa, they would have a real need for at least some of those ships even if it could be quite dubious to keep the existing MSN people to be the majority of the Navy.


I think that for most places the Torch Navy will be going A Q-Ship with modern weapons & Some modern LAC's in the cargo holds will do.

Nimitz
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Re: Spoiler Captured Mesan Navy Ships
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:52 pm

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If I were running the show I would as far as possible try to keep those ships out of private hands. It probably would not be a good idea to send them to the breakers.

Whatever government that replaces the former one on Mesa, it's going to be a lot more broadly based than what it replaces, undoubtedly having slave and seccy representation. That government is going to need a navy. IIRC, the MSN had about 25 bcs plus some smaller units. Perhaps the best idea would be to leave that navy in place under new management to provide the system defense force Mesa is going to need once the time for Mike Hemke and Tourville to withdraw.

One more thought about sending those ships to the breakers. Remember that they are competitive, unit for unit against everything but Alliance tech which makes them useful for system defense and pirate chasing.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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