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Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....

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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Fox2!   » Sat May 26, 2018 11:34 pm

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xx
ldwechsler wrote:
Forgetting the politics, let us recall that the Windsors are a different dynasty from the Stuarts...or Cromwell.

James II was the last Stuart to rule.

Of course, Prince William is a Stuart through Princess Diana (A descendant of an illegitimate child of Charles II) but that doesn't count.

At any rate, the government of Manticore was modeled on John Locke's Constitution for the Carolinas.


So, at long last the Jacobite cause is vindicated! Up the '45!

Just to bring things back to the Honorverse, I remember Rev. Sullivan explaining to the Keys protesting the ... irregularity of Honor and Hamish's living arrangements, and of Raoul's conception, that there was a long history of the illegitimate sons of steadholders who died without legitimate male issue being legitimated after their father's death and inheriting the Key. I am sure the necessary fancy footwork could be accomplished to recognize any of the interleaved illegitimate Stuarts, and restore the True King.

Holding hand over water glass for the loyalty toast.

What a difference a few letters make. Jacobite != Jacobin
Last edited by Fox2! on Sun May 27, 2018 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by munroburton   » Sun May 27, 2018 8:24 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:If Cromell had his way there would be no British Dynasty

Nimitz


The Protectorship was hereditary. Cromwell was starting his own dynasty as a military dictatorship.

My ancestors went to Connaught. Cromwell went to Hell.


I was rather amused to learn the other day that MV Oliver Cromwell, a paddle steamer converted into a riverside hotel, had sunk.

On its way to Northern Ireland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-44258998
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun May 27, 2018 8:51 am

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munroburton wrote:
Fox2! wrote:If Cromell had his way there would be no British Dynasty

Nimitz


The Protectorship was hereditary. Cromwell was starting his own dynasty as a military dictatorship.

My ancestors went to Connaught. Cromwell went to Hell.


I was rather amused to learn the other day that MV Oliver Cromwell, a paddle steamer converted into a riverside hotel, had sunk.

On its way to Northern Ireland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-44258998[/quote]

I don't know enough about history to argue about all of this. Charles I was certainly no winner either.

Note that Eric Flint has argued AGAINST a lot of the anti-Cromwell attitude in his series.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Randomiser   » Sun May 27, 2018 11:45 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Forgetting the politics, let us recall that the Windsors are a different dynasty from the Stuarts...or Cromwell.

James II was the last Stuart to rule.



Just for accuracy, Queen Anne, the younger daughter of James II and VII, was the last Stuart to rule over here.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun May 27, 2018 11:33 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Forgetting the politics, let us recall that the Windsors are a different dynasty from the Stuarts...or Cromwell.

James II was the last Stuart to rule.



Just for accuracy, Queen Anne, the younger daughter of James II and VII, was the last Stuart to rule over here.



Sorry. You are correct. Those of us in the US tend to remember "Glorious Revolution" and William and Mary, etc.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by n7axw   » Mon May 28, 2018 5:34 pm

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Actually, Cromwell wasn't a bad man. In fact he was an honorable man with good character. Parliament wasn't in its best form afer the Roundhead triumph. Most of England probably was relieved whem he dismissed it in rather dramatic fashion with the Ironsides. The real issue was that even though the Roundheads had won the Civil War, they weren't even close to being represenative of England as a whole.

Cromwell's tragedy was that while he yearned to rule by consent, he was never able to find it so instead he wound up an authoritarian. The factional feelings in the aftermath of the war were simply too raw for any other result. It took another decade after Cromwell for there to be a settlement which took the form of being a restoration of both crown and Parliment.

As for the situation in Ireland, much of what happened there during this period, including Cromwell's involvment, needs to be understood in terms of the Irish being perceived as the threat of restored Catholic dominance in England. Particularly at this time, the Irish had provided thousands of mercenaries to the Habsburgs through the Thirty Years War. Remember the Wild Geese? It wasn't a far fetched thought to visualize Irish troops recruited and paid for by Spain in support of the Stuarts intervening in England.

In a way this is made more poignant by the intervention of Scottish Protestant vets of the Continental war in England's civil war on the side of the Roundheads.

Nor was the threat of Irish intervention new to this period. It also plagued the Elizabethan era as well.

My point is that as we judge Cromwell's actions we have to remember that from his point of view, he was trying to bring resolution to a very complicated equation. Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that in the end he failed to do so.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Mon May 28, 2018 6:05 pm

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n7axw wrote:Actually, Cromwell wasn't a bad man. In fact he was an honorable man with good character. Parliament wasn't in its best form afer the Roundhead triumph. Most of England probably was relieved whem he dismissed it in rather dramatic fashion with the Ironsides. The real issue was that even though the Roundheads had won the Civil War, they weren't even close to being represenative of England as a whole.

Cromwell's tragedy was that while he yearned to rule by consent, he was never able to find it so instead he wound up an authoritarian. The factional feelings in the aftermath of the war were simply too raw for any other result. It took another decade after Cromwell for there to be a settlement which took the form of being a restoration of both crown and Parliment.

As for the situation in Ireland, much of what happened there during this period, including Cromwell's involvment, needs to be understood in terms of the Irish being perceived as the threat of restored Catholic dominance in England. Particularly at this time, the Irish had provided thousands of mercenaries to the Habsburgs through the Thirty Years War. Remember the Wild Geese? It wasn't a far fetched thought to visualize Irish troops recruited and paid for by Spain in support of the Stuarts intervening in England.

In a way this is made more poignant by the intervention of Scottish Protestant vets of the Continental war in England's civil war on the side of the Roundheads.

Nor was the threat of Irish intervention new to this period. It also plagued the Elizabethan era as well.

My point is that as we judge Cromwell's actions we have to remember that from his point of view, he was trying to bring resolution to a very complicated equation. Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that in the end he failed to do so.

Don

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I guess making it Illegal to vote, own property, join military, Practice Your Religon & send Your relitives into slavery by Cromwell might be called "Reasonable"

Nimitz
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Fox2!   » Mon May 28, 2018 6:24 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote: I guess making it Illegal to vote, own property, join military, Practice Your Religon & send Your relitives into slavery by Cromwell might be called "Reasonable"

Nimitz


To either push the native population into the poorest fifth of the country, or kill them (Cromwell infamously gave the Irish the choice of either going to Connaught, or to Hell) would qualify under modern understanding of ethnic cleansing, as would the Highland Clearances. Ireland considered itself to be illegally occupied by a foreign army, as did some parts of Scotland. Resistance was considered to be essential for national and ethnic survival.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Fox2!   » Mon May 28, 2018 6:29 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Just for accuracy, Queen Anne, the younger daughter of James II and VII, was the last Stuart to rule over here.


Known "over here" for Queen Anne's War (the "War of Spanish Succession") against the French and Indians.
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Re: Now we know when the British Monarchy...Manticore....
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote: I guess making it Illegal to vote, own property, join military, Practice Your Religon & send Your relitives into slavery by Cromwell might be called "Reasonable"

Nimitz


To either push the native population into the poorest fifth of the country, or kill them (Cromwell infamously gave the Irish the choice of either going to Connaught, or to Hell) would qualify under modern understanding of ethnic cleansing, as would the Highland Clearances. Ireland considered itself to be illegally occupied by a foreign army, as did some parts of Scotland. Resistance was considered to be essential for national and ethnic survival.


So that is where Hitler got the idea - Who knew?

Nimitz
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