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SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat

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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed May 09, 2018 8:48 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:No--you are pretending you know who the enemy agents are. Trigger the nanotech suicide and you confirmed the person you were questioning was an enemy and you have identified another enemy agent.

Remember, in the end Kingsford was simply arresting everyone and seeing who survived. Kingsford had no infallable enemies list, he was simply fishing. The MAlign didn't think of the sidechannel information in their protocol, much like we are seeing in the computer world with Spectre and Meltdown.


Kingsford could get away with it basically because of his position in the chain of command + emergency situation of Case Zulu (or SLN equivalent). Anyone he wrongly accused could accept a sincere apology and the need to determine loyalty or file a formal complaint with ... oh wait The Mandarins are mostly in military custody.

Yes for chasing down potential non-military spies/agents, it gets a bit dicier. Unless they can use the government crisis to declare Martial Law.


It should be acceptable on anyone with a security clearance--and those without one aren't in a position to learn that much.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by pappilon   » Thu May 10, 2018 4:20 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
It should be acceptable on anyone with a security clearance--and those without one aren't in a position to learn that much.


Yes, for that, but what about all those little warehouse foremen with those delusions of "The Cause" floating around with those detonation sequences and orders of when to use them?

And one would not need much of a clearance to know when 8th fleet fired up to depart the Sol System.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat May 12, 2018 5:49 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
It should be acceptable on anyone with a security clearance--and those without one aren't in a position to learn that much.


Yes, for that, but what about all those little warehouse foremen with those delusions of "The Cause" floating around with those detonation sequences and orders of when to use them?

And one would not need much of a clearance to know when 8th fleet fired up to depart the Sol System.


There may be some but at the key places, you can always have some treecats now. They've moved into the GA as great little checkers.

Would not be hard to have a treecat present at all employment interviews. I bet a few questions could be designed to find out problems.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by phillies   » Sat May 12, 2018 7:42 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Fox2! wrote:
The crisis is in the League government, and in whatever government runs the solar system. There's no immediate government crisis on the planet that would allow imposing martial law inside the atmosphere (which could be either the NASA-defined "entry interface" at 250,000 feet, or the 50 miles the military requires to wear astronaut wings).



WTF??? All the non-military spies are on the planet, not at 250,000 feet or 50 mile territorial limit or whatever. They just arrested the league government. Of course they use that crisis. I thought my previous statement was clear enough. :oops:


I believe what is happening is that Kingsford is staging a coup d'etat. That;s one of the things that happens to governments that do not work. At some point, news that the SLN parliament claimed it could ignore the Constitution and impose direct taxes will reach other worlds, some of which will be less than impressed with the claim.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat May 12, 2018 9:12 pm

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phillies wrote:
pappilon wrote:
The crisis is in the League government, and in whatever government runs the solar system. There's no immediate government crisis on the planet that would allow imposing martial law inside the atmosphere (which could be either the NASA-defined "entry interface" at 250,000 feet, or the 50 miles the military requires to wear astronaut wings).



WTF??? All the non-military spies are on the planet, not at 250,000 feet or 50 mile territorial limit or whatever. They just arrested the league government. Of course they use that crisis. I thought my previous statement was clear enough. :oops:


I believe what is happening is that Kingsford is staging a coup d'etat. That;s one of the things that happens to governments that do not work. At some point, news that the SLN parliament claimed it could ignore the Constitution and impose direct taxes will reach other worlds, some of which will be less than impressed with the claim.[/quote]

There will be a lot of politicking going on. Most of the leadership of different planets will realize that the bureaucracy was doing all the work and making decisions. Most had little relation to them if they were full members. But it will take a while to straighten things out.

It took months for a small group of men in the early US to create a simple Constitution. It is likely to take a few years to get a new League Constitution in shape.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by pappilon   » Sun May 13, 2018 3:18 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
I believe what is happening is that Kingsford is staging a coup d'etat. That's one of the things that happens to governments that do not work. At some point, news that the SLN parliament claimed it could ignore the Constitution and impose direct taxes will reach other worlds, some of which will be less than impressed with the claim.


There will be a lot of politicking going on. Most of the leadership of different planets will realize that the bureaucracy was doing all the work and making decisions. Most had little relation to them if they were full members. But it will take a while to straighten things out.

It took months for a small group of men in the early US to create a simple Constitution. It is likely to take a few years to get a new League Constitution in shape.[/quote]

Not sure Coup d'Etat is the right word. He certainly decapitated the government But I don't really think he wants to impose his rule on the League. More like detained the extra-constitutional leders and has suspended the government pending a new constitution. But that's mere quibbling.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun May 13, 2018 8:51 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
It should be acceptable on anyone with a security clearance--and those without one aren't in a position to learn that much.


Yes, for that, but what about all those little warehouse foremen with those delusions of "The Cause" floating around with those detonation sequences and orders of when to use them?

And one would not need much of a clearance to know when 8th fleet fired up to depart the Sol System.


True, the low level information gathering won't be stopped, but the influence would be.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by pappilon   » Mon May 14, 2018 5:30 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote: True, the low level information gathering won't be stopped, but the influence would be.


Would be for now, granted, but spying always goes on as a rather open secret. The MA simplymust rebuild its spy system and it still has oodles of money and secret files to ... persuade the already persuadable.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am

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pappilon wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote: True, the low level information gathering won't be stopped, but the influence would be.


Would be for now, granted, but spying always goes on as a rather open secret. The MA simplymust rebuild its spy system and it still has oodles of money and secret files to ... persuade the already persuadable.


Again, some things are inevitable. But note the Manties have totally fooled the Havenites and MAlignmen more than a few times.

And with a lot of treecats around (remember that there were only a handful, those who were adopted, before), it would not be all that difficult to locate some of these low level spies.

Run training sessions with specially crafted vids that would affect someone who believes in a cause. Locate them and follow them.

The problem for the spymasters would be that if the really low level people are spotted and questioned, their identities could be known. No need for torture...just have good questioners and a cat.

Also, not THAT easy to deal with fleets leaving. Ships going out are not at the big space stations. They are already in space. You might find out that some have left but it might not be so timely.
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Re: SPOILER - Political/Security Changes via Treecat
Post by pappilon   » Mon May 14, 2018 1:21 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
Again, some things are inevitable. But note the Manties have totally fooled the Havenites and MAlignmen more than a few times.

And with a lot of treecats around (remember that there were only a handful, those who were adopted, before), it would not be all that difficult to locate some of these low level spies.

Run training sessions with specially crafted vids that would affect someone who believes in a cause. Locate them and follow them.

The problem for the spymasters would be that if the really low level people are spotted and questioned, their identities could be known. No need for torture...just have good questioners and a cat.

Also, not THAT easy to deal with fleets leaving. Ships going out are not at the big space stations. They are already in space. You might find out that some have left but it might not be so timely.


There are many more than there were before, but it still hardly constitutes "a lot". And most of those are assigned to particular civilian and military leaders. There are certainly not enough to stick in every government office building running mental sweeps of ... everyone. At least as I read the text.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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