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Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)

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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon May 07, 2018 11:27 pm

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Theemile wrote:SLN classes so far mentioned in text:

DD
. War Harvest
. Rampart
CL
. Liberty (retired)
. Morrigan
. Bridgeport
CA
. Gladiator
. Kutuzov
. Mikasa


Helen Zilwicki called the Gladiator the SLN's "newest" heavy cruiser, so that is the most up to date ship--probably part of the Fleet 2000 upgrade.

Crandal had 35 cruisers (12 heavy, 23 light) and 16 BCs as part of her screening forces, along with 18 destroyers. Types weren't given. less than 1 per waller.

Filareta had 30 cruisers (all light) and 32 BCs, with 48 destroyers. Almost 1 for every 4 wallers.

The Kutozov comes from Shadow of Victory, but you may not have that part of the book yet.

Mikasa was first referenced in SoSag in an exercise the middies were working en route to Spindle.

But I don't remember a reference to a Liberty class CL. I will have to go looking for it (darn! Now I have to re-read the whole series! :D )

Maldorian, something to consider is that the Fleet actions we've been seeing involve Battle Fleet, and both Crandall and Filareta were grossly under-strength in screening units even by their own standards. Crandall had 69 units under the wall (12 unidentified CA's) to screen 71 SD's; Filareta had 110 ships screening 427 SD's (no CA's at all). Doctrine says BF draws its screening vessels from FF; textev suggests FF is completely over-extended and literally cannot free up the vessels to provide that support. Ironically, it is because BF never thought it would need those screening units, and spent their cash on SDs instead.

As far as the SLN not having a mission for cruisers, I don't think we have enough data. RFC may just not have written a scene that included many CA's because they are all in use in other out of the way places on the Fringe.

FF's uses of the Indefatigable class reminds me a lot of the People's Navy use of battleships for system security & suppression. But Himself didn't give us any insight into fleet strength or philosophy to know what they had; or if they wanted what they actually had.

Here is a different possibility:

Frontier Fleet got so many battlecruisers because that was the ship Battle Fleet wanted for a screening vessel, and FF had to make do with it. The actual missions in the Verge don't seem to have needed a BC's firepower at all, it was the flag officer's ego that rated the BC.

And it is also possible that, since they were stuck with all those BC's, that FF didn't put flag decks on all their heavy cruisers in the first place. Sort of like the Prince Consort, which was designed when the SLN was still considered the galaxy's premiere navy.

Regards,

Rob
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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:I have to wonder if anybody is going to think to compare the data about the explosion of the Space Station at New Tuscany with the ones at Beowulf?

I realize that Adm Byng might not have thought to order one but perhaps somebody in the Task Force (this was FF after all) might have thought to see what actualy blew up the station and used their own ship's sensor logs.

It is not beyond possiblilty that the 4 bombs were actual closely related warheads in those shipping containers.
That would be one more piece into the Alignment puzzle.
One presumes the weapons were staged into a location for the Alignment mission to Beowulf because it might not be so good if you had to steal (or have misplaced) three warheads from a military storage area.

Besides, if you couldn't use "stock" SLN weapons diverted from someplace - like a production line of Technodyne), then a few containers from Darius wouldn't be too hard. After all, those massive graser torpedos equiped with all that sensor gear and solar panals came from Darius (brand new design) so why not warheads?
In the short term (decades anyway) not being able to identify where the nuclear weapons were manufactured- based on analysis of explosion reside- would continue to cloud the question of "who did this".


Good points. I will only commenting that Byng had no interest in investigating. He was too busy trying to CYOA.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by pappilon   » Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 am

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n7axw wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:I have to wonder if anybody is going to think to compare the data about the explosion of the Space Station at New Tuscany with the ones at Beowulf?

I realize that Adm Byng might not have thought to order one but perhaps somebody in the Task Force (this was FF after all) might have thought to see what actualy blew up the station and used their own ship's sensor logs.

It is not beyond possiblilty that the 4 bombs were actual closely related warheads in those shipping containers.
That would be one more piece into the Alignment puzzle.
One presumes the weapons were staged into a location for the Alignment mission to Beowulf because it might not be so good if you had to steal (or have misplaced) three warheads from a military storage area.

Besides, if you couldn't use "stock" SLN weapons diverted from someplace - like a production line of Technodyne), then a few containers from Darius wouldn't be too hard. After all, those massive graser torpedos equiped with all that sensor gear and solar panals came from Darius (brand new design) so why not warheads?
In the short term (decades anyway) not being able to identify where the nuclear weapons were manufactured- based on analysis of explosion reside- would continue to cloud the question of "who did this".


Good points. I will only commenting that Byng had no interest in investigating. He was too busy trying to CYOA.

Don

-


Seems to me all that potential forensic evidence is not going to be found on sensor logs, but rather in the ever expanding debris field.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed May 09, 2018 8:34 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:As far as the SLN not having a mission for cruisers, I don't think we have enough data. RFC may just not have written a scene that included many CA's because they are all in use in other out of the way places on the Fringe.

FF's uses of the Indefatigable class reminds me a lot of the People's Navy use of battleships for system security & suppression. But Himself didn't give us any insight into fleet strength or philosophy to know what they had; or if they wanted what they actually had.

Here is a different possibility:

Frontier Fleet got so many battlecruisers because that was the ship Battle Fleet wanted for a screening vessel, and FF had to make do with it. The actual missions in the Verge don't seem to have needed a BC's firepower at all, it was the flag officer's ego that rated the BC.

And it is also possible that, since they were stuck with all those BC's, that FF didn't put flag decks on all their heavy cruisers in the first place. Sort of like the Prince Consort, which was designed when the SLN was still considered the galaxy's premiere navy.

Regards,

Rob


The reason you don't see much need for a battlecruiser in the Verge, is in part, because the League has that reputation of "biggest & most powerful navy in the universe". Nobody outside Manticore was willing to risk going eyeball to eyeball with the League, so when even 1 Solarian destroyer shows up, everybody else rolled over like a good doggo. Nobody ever dared attack Solly ships, because that was just a quick form of national suicide.


I'd say Frontier Fleet has so many battlecruisers actually more in part to it's original mission mandates, from before the League became corrupt.

Patrolling the frontiers against piracy, flag showing to allied neighbours, and most importantly trying to seal the borders of hostile neighbours until Battle Fleet could be mustered to deal with it. All of those missions are best served by battlecruisers, that's not flag officer ego it's simply how the class is designed.

As the League became more and more corrupt however, battlecruisers served another important role, notably that of "pirates", as covered in Frontier Fleets Case Buccaneer or Case Fabius.


Battlecruisers serve Frontier Fleet's needs almost perfectly for flagships. They just need double or triple the cruisers they have, because (manticoran viewpoint) destroyers are a fleets eyes and cruisers are it's fingers & hands. Frontier Fleet has more than enough battlecruisers to 'show the flag' but it's half blind, one armed and has a SEVERE case of palsy.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 09, 2018 12:52 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Somtaaw wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:As far as the SLN not having a mission for cruisers, I don't think we have enough data. RFC may just not have written a scene that included many CA's because they are all in use in other out of the way places on the Fringe.

FF's uses of the Indefatigable class reminds me a lot of the People's Navy use of battleships for system security & suppression. But Himself didn't give us any insight into fleet strength or philosophy to know what they had; or if they wanted what they actually had.

Here is a different possibility:

Frontier Fleet got so many battlecruisers because that was the ship Battle Fleet wanted for a screening vessel, and FF had to make do with it. The actual missions in the Verge don't seem to have needed a BC's firepower at all, it was the flag officer's ego that rated the BC.

And it is also possible that, since they were stuck with all those BC's, that FF didn't put flag decks on all their heavy cruisers in the first place. Sort of like the Prince Consort, which was designed when the SLN was still considered the galaxy's premiere navy.

Regards,

Rob


The reason you don't see much need for a battlecruiser in the Verge, is in part, because the League has that reputation of "biggest & most powerful navy in the universe". Nobody outside Manticore was willing to risk going eyeball to eyeball with the League, so when even 1 Solarian destroyer shows up, everybody else rolled over like a good doggo. Nobody ever dared attack Solly ships, because that was just a quick form of national suicide.


I'd say Frontier Fleet has so many battlecruisers actually more in part to it's original mission mandates, from before the League became corrupt.

Patrolling the frontiers against piracy, flag showing to allied neighbours, and most importantly trying to seal the borders of hostile neighbours until Battle Fleet could be mustered to deal with it. All of those missions are best served by battlecruisers, that's not flag officer ego it's simply how the class is designed.

As the League became more and more corrupt however, battlecruisers served another important role, notably that of "pirates", as covered in Frontier Fleets Case Buccaneer or Case Fabius.


Battlecruisers serve Frontier Fleet's needs almost perfectly for flagships. They just need double or triple the cruisers they have, because (manticoran viewpoint) destroyers are a fleets eyes and cruisers are it's fingers & hands. Frontier Fleet has more than enough battlecruisers to 'show the flag' but it's half blind, one armed and has a SEVERE case of palsy.


Actually unlless they are going up against GA light units, Solly bcs are quite capable units with well trained crews who are competitve with every one else. The half blind half deaf and one armed bit does apply at the policy level.


Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Maldorian   » Wed May 09, 2018 1:45 pm

Maldorian
Commander

Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:54 am

Somtaaw wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
As far as the SLN not having a mission for cruisers, I don't think we have enough data. RFC may just not have written a scene that included many CA's because they are all in use in other out of the way places on the Fringe.

FF's uses of the Indefatigable class reminds me a lot of the People's Navy use of battleships for system security & suppression. But Himself didn't give us any insight into fleet strength or philosophy to know what they had; or if they wanted what they actually had.

Here is a different possibility:

Frontier Fleet got so many battlecruisers because that was the ship Battle Fleet wanted for a screening vessel, and FF had to make do with it. The actual missions in the Verge don't seem to have needed a BC's firepower at all, it was the flag officer's ego that rated the BC.

And it is also possible that, since they were stuck with all those BC's, that FF didn't put flag decks on all their heavy cruisers in the first place. Sort of like the Prince Consort, which was designed when the SLN was still considered the galaxy's premiere navy.

Regards,

Rob


The reason you don't see much need for a battlecruiser in the Verge, is in part, because the League has that reputation of "biggest & most powerful navy in the universe". Nobody outside Manticore was willing to risk going eyeball to eyeball with the League, so when even 1 Solarian destroyer shows up, everybody else rolled over like a good doggo. Nobody ever dared attack Solly ships, because that was just a quick form of national suicide.


I'd say Frontier Fleet has so many battlecruisers actually more in part to it's original mission mandates, from before the League became corrupt.

Patrolling the frontiers against piracy, flag showing to allied neighbours, and most importantly trying to seal the borders of hostile neighbours until Battle Fleet could be mustered to deal with it. All of those missions are best served by battlecruisers, that's not flag officer ego it's simply how the class is designed.

As the League became more and more corrupt however, battlecruisers served another important role, notably that of "pirates", as covered in Frontier Fleets Case Buccaneer or Case Fabius.


Battlecruisers serve Frontier Fleet's needs almost perfectly for flagships. They just need double or triple the cruisers they have, because (manticoran viewpoint) destroyers are a fleets eyes and cruisers are it's fingers & hands. Frontier Fleet has more than enough battlecruisers to 'show the flag' but it's half blind, one armed and has a SEVERE case of palsy.


Actually unlless they are going up against GA light units, Solly bcs are quite capable units with well trained crews who are competitve with every one else. The half blind half deaf and one armed bit does apply at the policy level.


Don


Who need´s destroyer as eyes? The League has people in the most systems of the league, the shell and the verge. You only need desroyers for scouting in systems without solarian presence.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 09, 2018 2:28 pm

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Posts: 3201
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

Maldorian wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
As far as the SLN not having a mission for cruisers, I don't think we have enough data. RFC may just not have written a scene that included many CA's because they are all in use in other out of the way places on the Fringe.

FF's uses of the Indefatigable class reminds me a lot of the People's Navy use of battleships for system security & suppression. But Himself didn't give us any insight into fleet strength or philosophy to know what they had; or if they wanted what they actually had.

Here is a different possibility:

Frontier Fleet got so many battlecruisers because that was the ship Battle Fleet wanted for a screening vessel, and FF had to make do with it. The actual missions in the Verge don't seem to have needed a BC's firepower at all, it was the flag officer's ego that rated the BC.

And it is also possible that, since they were stuck with all those BC's, that FF didn't put flag decks on all their heavy cruisers in the first place. Sort of like the Prince Consort, which was designed when the SLN was still considered the galaxy's premiere navy.

Regards,

Rob


The reason you don't see much need for a battlecruiser in the Verge, is in part, because the League has that reputation of "biggest & most powerful navy in the universe". Nobody outside Manticore was willing to risk going eyeball to eyeball with the League, so when even 1 Solarian destroyer shows up, everybody else rolled over like a good doggo. Nobody ever dared attack Solly ships, because that was just a quick form of national suicide.


I'd say Frontier Fleet has so many battlecruisers actually more in part to it's original mission mandates, from before the League became corrupt.

Patrolling the frontiers against piracy, flag showing to allied neighbours, and most importantly trying to seal the borders of hostile neighbours until Battle Fleet could be mustered to deal with it. All of those missions are best served by battlecruisers, that's not flag officer ego it's simply how the class is designed.

As the League became more and more corrupt however, battlecruisers served another important role, notably that of "pirates", as covered in Frontier Fleets Case Buccaneer or Case Fabius.


Battlecruisers serve Frontier Fleet's needs almost perfectly for flagships. They just need double or triple the cruisers they have, because (manticoran viewpoint) destroyers are a fleets eyes and cruisers are it's fingers & hands. Frontier Fleet has more than enough battlecruisers to 'show the flag' but it's half blind, one armed and has a SEVERE case of palsy.


Actually unlless they are going up against GA light units, Solly bcs are quite capable units with well trained crews who are competitve with every one else. The half blind half deaf and one armed bit does apply at the policy level.


Don


Who need´s destroyer as eyes? The League has people in the most systems of the league, the shell and the verge. You only need desroyers for scouting in systems without solarian presence.


Solarian Recon Drones are short ranged and limited in power and endurance. Until they get that rectified (and get modern LACs, all Solarian fleets will be old school and require Tactical Scouts, if nothing else than to be RD tenders.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed May 09, 2018 5:15 pm

Somtaaw
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Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
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n7axw wrote:
Actually unlless they are going up against GA light units, Solly bcs are quite capable units with well trained crews who are competitve with every one else. The half blind half deaf and one armed bit does apply at the policy level.


Don

-


We think they are... remember nobody has been willing to even THINK about shooting a Solarian warship in over 300 years. And they aren't exactly that serious about anti-piracy patrols, and all evidence shows that their training sims are gimmes and the "secret details" get leaked to all the commanders before the sim even starts. So the only thing we know about Solarian training is based off their reputation from before the League became corrupt, and the League Navy got it's blinders on about how awesome it is, without actually looking at reality.

The half-blind, one-armed, and palsy is aimed more at the Navy level, rather than specific commanders or units. The SLN has a fraction of the destroyers and cruisers it needs. They dont have good recon drones or LAC's, so it's destroyers fill that role of checking things out, but due to numbers they don't have nearly enough (half blind). And then they don't have nearly enough cruisers to actually handle commerce protection, anti-piracy patrols, or even their 'support Gendarmes with orbital strikes' missions, or anything else that's normally a cruiser role, which is why they're one-armed.

And the palsy is mostly the seemingly endless bad commanders, making one bad choice after another, sometimes because they've received orders and they don't dare refuse (Tsang, or that one Admiral in charge of trying to get a freighter through a Manticoran highjacked wormhole)
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 09, 2018 8:46 pm

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Posts: 5100
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Somtaaw wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Actually unlless they are going up against GA light units, Solly bcs are quite capable units with well trained crews who are competitve with every one else. The half blind half deaf and one armed bit does apply at the policy level.


Don

-


We think they are... remember nobody has been willing to even THINK about shooting a Solarian warship in over 300 years. And they aren't exactly that serious about anti-piracy patrols, and all evidence shows that their training sims are gimmes and the "secret details" get leaked to all the commanders before the sim even starts. So the only thing we know about Solarian training is based off their reputation from before the League became corrupt, and the League Navy got it's blinders on about how awesome it is, without actually looking at reality.

The half-blind, one-armed, and palsy is aimed more at the Navy level, rather than specific commanders or units. The SLN has a fraction of the destroyers and cruisers it needs. They dont have good recon drones or LAC's, so it's destroyers fill that role of checking things out, but due to numbers they don't have nearly enough (half blind). And then they don't have nearly enough cruisers to actually handle commerce protection, anti-piracy patrols, or even their 'support Gendarmes with orbital strikes' missions, or anything else that's normally a cruiser role, which is why they're one-armed.

And the palsy is mostly the seemingly endless bad commanders, making one bad choice after another, sometimes because they've received orders and they don't dare refuse (Tsang, or that one Admiral in charge of trying to get a freighter through a Manticoran highjacked wormhole)


Those bad commanders so far have been mostly battlefleet. Frontier fleet commanders seem to mostly have brains that work. Even that Admiral in Saltash who got herself blown away seemed to be victimized by lack of information rather than being dumb.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed May 09, 2018 11:22 pm

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[/quote]

Good points. I will only commenting that Byng had no interest in investigating. He was too busy trying to CYOA.

Don

-[/quote]

Seems to me all that potential forensic evidence is not going to be found on sensor logs, but rather in the ever expanding debris field.[/quote]

At least some of the FF commanders at New Tuscany were looking to keep their own data on the explosion and everything elce that happened. Some of that was CYA for them but also they were interested in acutaly finding out what happened. Ok, the RMN got to strip everything from the surviving SLN ships, but some of the officers may have kept copies- of their original data- that they were keeping back from Byng. That would make interesting reading and analysis.
We don't know how many of the SLN personal have gotten back to Sol let alone how many had that kind of data with them. How many are still at New Tuscany?
Give what has happened since, how many of the people who had access to that information in SLN at New Tuscany might find it useful to trade to the GA if not give to the now much more intersted Sr. Leadership (like Kingsford) after the discussion with Honor?
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