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Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)

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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by kzt   » Mon May 28, 2018 5:20 am

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PeterZ wrote:There is a price advantage provided by the ex-Protectorates supply of exported resources; basic resources, not just exotic luxury items. Recall all the resource extraction facilities in those Verge and Protectorate worlds.

Actually, no I don’t. Are you suggesting that they build asteroid mining platforms then ship them 400 ly to some verge system and then ship millions of tons of pulverized asteroid 400 ly back to the home office?
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 28, 2018 12:03 pm

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kzt wrote:
PeterZ wrote:There is a price advantage provided by the ex-Protectorates supply of exported resources; basic resources, not just exotic luxury items. Recall all the resource extraction facilities in those Verge and Protectorate worlds.

Actually, no I don’t. Are you suggesting that they build asteroid mining platforms then ship them 400 ly to some verge system and then ship millions of tons of pulverized asteroid 400 ly back to the home office?

I am in many cases. Because OFS secures those assets backed by battle fleet, the investment had been considered fairly low risk. The labor saving for running those machines in solar systems with heavy asteroid belts provides an appreciable cost advantage over any incremental investment in a Core World resource extraction system.

I doubt that those sort of investment is often attractive out in the Vrege, However, given the Protectorates are under complete SL jurisdiction, such investments are secure enough. So, the Core Worlds can invest in extraction systems that offer very poor returns or purchase imports at an attractive price. There has to be a market for trading base materials between star systems or those entire story makes no sense. The Protectorate system would never have developed around transstellars trade. Exploiting the local protectorate economy came after the SL justified its involment in those stellar systems because of interstellar trade. Trading in unique luxury items wouldn't provide nearly the volume of interstellar trade text states it does.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by kzt   » Mon May 28, 2018 5:01 pm

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Can you actually site any examples in the text of this?
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 28, 2018 6:03 pm

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kzt wrote:Can you actually site any examples in the text of this?

I went back and found an RFC post stating the Protectorate system was set up for other reasons than trade. That it was supposed to be a way to prevent human rights abuses rather than an extension of regulating trade. The volume of interstellar trade then may be predominantly from Core Worlds trading with each other.

I recall a post that RFC made regarding base materials being traded between star systems. I'll continue looking for that.
EDIT:
http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5966&p=152663&hilit=verge+trade+raw+materials#p152663

Here is what recalled. I stand corrected the commodity I was thinking about is more bulk foodstuffs, not base materials from resource extraction from asteroids. The logic of replacing those sources of bulk goods will have an impact on the overall economy and there is a comparative price advantage for the suppliers compared to alternative sources available to the Core World buyer.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Vince   » Tue May 29, 2018 3:11 am

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PeterZ wrote:
kzt wrote:Can you actually site any examples in the text of this?

I went back and found an RFC post stating the Protectorate system was set up for other reasons than trade. That it was supposed to be a way to prevent human rights abuses rather than an extension of regulating trade. The volume of interstellar trade then may be predominantly from Core Worlds trading with each other.

I recall a post that RFC made regarding base materials being traded between star systems. I'll continue looking for that.
EDIT:
http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5966&p=152663&hilit=verge+trade+raw+materials#p152663

Here is what recalled. I stand corrected the commodity I was thinking about is more bulk foodstuffs, not base materials from resource extraction from asteroids. The logic of replacing those sources of bulk goods will have an impact on the overall economy and there is a comparative price advantage for the suppliers compared to alternative sources available to the Core World buyer.

Base materials from resource extraction from asteroids, and even asteroid ore itself, as well as agricultural products, are shipped across interstellar distances in the Honorverse:
Echos of Honor, Chapter 30 wrote:"Do you really think we can pull this off?" Everard Honeker asked very quietly. Lester Tourville almost gave a snort of laughter, but then he looked up with a much more serious expression as the people's commissioner's tone registered.

***Snip to Lester Tourville speaking to Everard Honeker***

"First of all, Sir, there are some substantial differences between Zanzibar and Yeltsin's Star. Zanzibar has a much larger population, but it's a largely agrarian world. The system's asteroid belts are richer than most, and it's developed a respectable extraction industry in the last thirty or so T-years, but it's primarily an exporter of raw materials—definitely still a third-tier economy. By this time, Yeltsin is at least second-tier, and I think an argument could be made for its rapidly approaching first-tier status. More to the point, the Zanzibar Navy is still essentially a sublight self-defense force which requires a substantial Manty picket for backup, whereas the Grayson Navy has turned Yeltsin into some kind of black hole for our ships."
Boldface is my emphasis.
Echos of Honor, Chapter 37 wrote:Despite the temperature setting, most of the people in Basilisk ACS' central control room were sweating hard as they tried to cope. The initial reaction of the merchant traffic awaiting transit had been confusion, promptly followed by a panic that was as inevitable as it was irrational. They were ten light-hours from the Peeps' obvious objective, and every hostile starship in the vicinity was headed for Medusa, which meant almost directly away from them. There was ample time to get every one of them through the Junction and safely out of harm's way, and even if there hadn't been, they were far outside the Basilisk hyper limit. The FTL sensor net would give plenty of warning if any of the Peeps turned around and headed this way, and it would be relatively simple to duck into hyper and vanish long before the enemy could possibly get here.
Those comforting reflections, however, did not appear to be foremost in the minds of the merchant skippers arguing vociferously with Michel Reynaud's controllers. Lieutenant Carluchi and her pinnaces had already been required to physically intervene to keep a big Andermani ore ship and a Solarian freighter loaded with agricultural delicacies for the inner League worlds from jumping the queue.
Despite his fury with both skippers and a personal dislike for the Solarian League which had grown with each report of technology transfers to the Peeps, Reynaud could summon up rather more sympathy for the Solly than for the Andy. Asteroid ore was scarcely a perishable commodity, and the skipper's flight plan indicated he was on a fairly leisurely routing anyway. But while the Solly was less than two hours out of Sigma Draconis on a direct transit via the Junction, she would add over two T-months to her voyage just to reach Manticore the long way if she was forced to run for it in hyper. And her cargo was about as perishible as they came. Understanding the reasons for the woman's blustering anxiety hadn't made him any more patient with her, however, and he'd watched with satisfaction as Carluchi's pinnaces chivvied her ship back into line.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 29, 2018 11:27 am

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Thanks, Vince! Coupled with RFC's comments your text supports the idea that raw materials exports and bulk foodstuffs are supplied by lower tiered economies. That the ex-Protectorates represent the majority if not nearly the totality of such imports into the League Core Worlds. RFC's post stipulates foodstuffs represent a larger volume shipped into the Core Worlds than raw materials.

I stand by my assertion that the SEM will recover very quickly serving the ex-Protectorate bulk export market into the League.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 29, 2018 12:27 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Thanks, Vince! Coupled with RFC's comments your text supports the idea that raw materials exports and bulk foodstuffs are supplied by lower tiered economies. That the ex-Protectorates represent the majority if not nearly the totality of such imports into the League Core Worlds. RFC's post stipulates foodstuffs represent a larger volume shipped into the Core Worlds than raw materials.

I stand by my assertion that the SEM will recover very quickly serving the ex-Protectorate bulk export market into the League.



In the SITS Situation books, it was mentioned that the Manticorian freighters on the great triangle route routinely stopped in the eastern stars of Silesia and filled the remaining portions of their holds with extracted ore for the return voyage to Manticore through Basilisk. Even with the shipping costs, they saw several cents per kilo/ton/whatever profit no matter how much they carried.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 29, 2018 1:29 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Thanks, Vince! Coupled with RFC's comments your text supports the idea that raw materials exports and bulk foodstuffs are supplied by lower tiered economies. That the ex-Protectorates represent the majority if not nearly the totality of such imports into the League Core Worlds. RFC's post stipulates foodstuffs represent a larger volume shipped into the Core Worlds than raw materials.

I stand by my assertion that the SEM will recover very quickly serving the ex-Protectorate bulk export market into the League.
Theemile wrote:In the SITS Situation books, it was mentioned that the Manticorian freighters on the great triangle route routinely stopped in the eastern stars of Silesia and filled the remaining portions of their holds with extracted ore for the return voyage to Manticore through Basilisk. Even with the shipping costs, they saw several cents per kilo/ton/whatever profit no matter how much they carried.


Yes, but the real question regarding the ex-Protectorates is the volume of raw materials they export into the League. RFC's comments suggest that raw materials are more limited than bulk foodstuffs. That suggests to me that there is a greater potential for a sustained price advantage in shipping foodstuffs into the Core Worlds than shipping raw mateirals. The opportunities for the RMMM to secure a significant majority of the ex-Protectorate export volume into the Core Worlds is incredibly good. So good that they will recover quite quickly after Honor forced the Solarian League to restructure.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 29, 2018 2:54 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Thanks, Vince! Coupled with RFC's comments your text supports the idea that raw materials exports and bulk foodstuffs are supplied by lower tiered economies. That the ex-Protectorates represent the majority if not nearly the totality of such imports into the League Core Worlds. RFC's post stipulates foodstuffs represent a larger volume shipped into the Core Worlds than raw materials.

I stand by my assertion that the SEM will recover very quickly serving the ex-Protectorate bulk export market into the League.
Theemile wrote:In the SITS Situation books, it was mentioned that the Manticorian freighters on the great triangle route routinely stopped in the eastern stars of Silesia and filled the remaining portions of their holds with extracted ore for the return voyage to Manticore through Basilisk. Even with the shipping costs, they saw several cents per kilo/ton/whatever profit no matter how much they carried.


Yes, but the real question regarding the ex-Protectorates is the volume of raw materials they export into the League. RFC's comments suggest that raw materials are more limited than bulk foodstuffs. That suggests to me that there is a greater potential for a sustained price advantage in shipping foodstuffs into the Core Worlds than shipping raw mateirals. The opportunities for the RMMM to secure a significant majority of the ex-Protectorate export volume into the Core Worlds is incredibly good. So good that they will recover quite quickly after Honor forced the Solarian League to restructure.


The question this raises in my mind would have to do with food shortages on heavily populated core worlds... If they are importing from the Protectorates, is being cut off by Manticore seizing the wormholes, are they suffering scarcity and potential malnutrition?

Don

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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Tue May 29, 2018 3:19 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Yes, but the real question regarding the ex-Protectorates is the volume of raw materials they export into the League. RFC's comments suggest that raw materials are more limited than bulk foodstuffs. That suggests to me that there is a greater potential for a sustained price advantage in shipping foodstuffs into the Core Worlds than shipping raw mateirals. The opportunities for the RMMM to secure a significant majority of the ex-Protectorate export volume into the Core Worlds is incredibly good. So good that they will recover quite quickly after Honor forced the Solarian League to restructure.
n7axw wrote:
The question this raises in my mind would have to do with food shortages on heavily populated core worlds... If they are importing from the Protectorates, is being cut off by Manticore seizing the wormholes, are they suffering scarcity and potential malnutrition?

Don
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I believe there will be a good deal of substitution. Something akin to eating less beef and more pork or more rice and less quinoa. The choices will be limited and those limits will inflate prices of the available alternatives, but I doubt there will be a shortage of actual calories available for consumption in the Core Worlds. I also believe that vitamins and trace nutritional elements can be synthetically produced. This will further increase prices if necessary, but won't actually harm anyone.

The result will impact almost everyone in the Core Worlds in appreciable ways, but not in catastrophic ones. Sort of like …."before one tries to persuade the League of anything, one first has to get their attention."
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