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Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)

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Re: Solarian Cruisers
Post by pappilon   » Thu May 10, 2018 1:49 am

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Brigade XO wrote:


Good points. I will only commenting that Byng had no interest in investigating. He was too busy trying to CYOA.

Don

-[/quote]

Seems to me all that potential forensic evidence is not going to be found on sensor logs, but rather in the ever expanding debris field.[/quote]

At least some of the FF commanders at New Tuscany were looking to keep their own data on the explosion and everything elce that happened. Some of that was CYA for them but also they were interested in acutaly finding out what happened. Ok, the RMN got to strip everything from the surviving SLN ships, but some of the officers may have kept copies- of their original data- that they were keeping back from Byng. That would make interesting reading and analysis.
We don't know how many of the SLN personal have gotten back to Sol let alone how many had that kind of data with them. How many are still at New Tuscany?
Give what has happened since, how many of the people who had access to that information in SLN at New Tuscany might find it useful to trade to the GA if not give to the now much more intersted Sr. Leadership (like Kingsford) after the discussion with Honor?[/quote]

Only the one courrier boat made out of New Tuscany with pathetic sensors. All the captured crew as interned on New Tuscany as part of the "we won't nuke your planet" deal they cut with Michelle.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Maldorian   » Sat May 12, 2018 3:37 am

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At least some of the FF commanders at New Tuscany were looking to keep their own data on the explosion and everything elce that happened. Some of that was CYA for them but also they were interested in acutaly finding out what happened. Ok, the RMN got to strip everything from the surviving SLN ships, but some of the officers may have kept copies- of their original data- that they were keeping back from Byng. That would make interesting reading and analysis.
We don't know how many of the SLN personal have gotten back to Sol let alone how many had that kind of data with them. How many are still at New Tuscany?
Give what has happened since, how many of the people who had access to that information in SLN at New Tuscany might find it useful to trade to the GA if not give to the now much more intersted Sr. Leadership (like Kingsford) after the discussion with Honor?


Not only at New Tuscany. Remember captain Zavala´s Battle? Some solarian Destroyers surrender and I bet, their captains took a copy of their sensor logs with them to proof, that they had no choiche as to surrender.

And we shouldn´t forget: if solarians fight in a system with an office of the OFS, then they can send their data to them. It is also possible, that the local office had a link to the solarian sensor probes, so that they have a direct access to combat data.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by pappilon   » Sat May 12, 2018 3:58 am

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Maldorian wrote:Not only at New Tuscany. Remember captain Zavala´s Battle? Some solarian Destroyers surrender and I bet, their captains took a copy of their sensor logs with them to proof, that they had no choiche as to surrender.


Wasn't that the old obsolete one hiding behind a moon, that was abandoned by its crew? IIRC the BCs were on the other side of te planet and that moon from the DD.

Maldorian wrote:And we shouldn´t forget: if solarians fight in a system with an office of the OFS, then they can send their data to them. It is also possible, that the local office had a link to the solarian sensor probes, so that they have a direct access to combat data.


That would be Meyers. Don't think the SLN got any sensormdara from there, either.

Oh, yeah, they got good sensor data from New Tuscany that just happened to pass through Mesa.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat May 12, 2018 4:18 pm

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In the interest of getting back on track, Solarian cruisers are probably the equal of anyone outside the GA -- and even fairy recent Havenite tech -- until you add the triad of micro-fusion power, Ghost Rider/FTL recon drones, and dual- or mult- drive missiles.

Pre- UH evidences: Gauntlet had trouble getting a fix on the cruisers in Tiberian; Hexapuma was able to get a better look at the opposition because of Ghost Rider. Helen Z. states that if Hexapuma had DD missiles and Mod-G warheads, they'd have gone for kills at Monica, etc. Both of those are supposed to be "not quite state of the art SLN tech"... at the cruiser level

We also have evidence that FF has a LOT of them, as there isn't much text evidence of piracy flourishing in the Shell OR the Verge, instead preferring safer area such as Silesia, etc. that are fundamentally unpoliced. Kingsford's raiding strategy to try to knock Manticore back into defensive mode also relies on the idea that they have enough cruisers to try to force the GA to be strong everywhere EXCEPT the nodal positions that would be a waste of ships and lives. Something to the effect of "it doesn't matter if they have better missiles if they don't have enough ships to launch them with -- we'll make them cover everything to buy time to get our tech base mobilized"...

But what we see is that they have maybe a squadron or two of BC's plus a presumed amount of smaller ships for every few star systems. OFS is using and abusing FF's core function by using Lenin's "one man with a rifle can control 100 men without" philosophy to essentially economically exploit all weaker entities...

A philosophy that stopped working rather recently because even a single Roland DD with Mod-G warheads is comparable to a WWII howitzer or newer with computerized target sighting compared to yon Civil War cannon crews. A set of Rolands? well, we know what they are capable of.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat May 12, 2018 5:35 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:In the interest of getting back on track, Solarian cruisers are probably the equal of anyone outside the GA -- and even fairy recent Havenite tech -- until you add the triad of micro-fusion power, Ghost Rider/FTL recon drones, and dual- or mult- drive missiles.

Pre- UH evidences: Gauntlet had trouble getting a fix on the cruisers in Tiberian; Hexapuma was able to get a better look at the opposition because of Ghost Rider. Helen Z. states that if Hexapuma had DD missiles and Mod-G warheads, they'd have gone for kills at Monica, etc. Both of those are supposed to be "not quite state of the art SLN tech"... at the cruiser level

We also have evidence that FF has a LOT of them, as there isn't much text evidence of piracy flourishing in the Shell OR the Verge, instead preferring safer area such as Silesia, etc. that are fundamentally unpoliced. Kingsford's raiding strategy to try to knock Manticore back into defensive mode also relies on the idea that they have enough cruisers to try to force the GA to be strong everywhere EXCEPT the nodal positions that would be a waste of ships and lives. Something to the effect of "it doesn't matter if they have better missiles if they don't have enough ships to launch them with -- we'll make them cover everything to buy time to get our tech base mobilized"...

But what we see is that they have maybe a squadron or two of BC's plus a presumed amount of smaller ships for every few star systems. OFS is using and abusing FF's core function by using Lenin's "one man with a rifle can control 100 men without" philosophy to essentially economically exploit all weaker entities...

A philosophy that stopped working rather recently because even a single Roland DD with Mod-G warheads is comparable to a WWII howitzer or newer with computerized target sighting compared to yon Civil War cannon crews. A set of Rolands? well, we know what they are capable of.



Let's keep in mind that the politics of the League will cause change. There will be some trials, etc. There will be a lot of political maneuvering. But the last thing anyone on Sol will want is to look like a thug.

Some planets and sectors may ask for ships. Those that don't will, at least for a while, probably go their own way.

Yes, Sollie ships are good but it is more likely that some planets will be fighting pirates.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by kzt   » Sat May 12, 2018 7:52 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Let's keep in mind that the politics of the League will cause change. There will be some trials, etc. There will be a lot of political maneuvering. But the last thing anyone on Sol will want is to look like a thug.

Some planets and sectors may ask for ships. Those that don't will, at least for a while, probably go their own way.

Yes, Sollie ships are good but it is more likely that some planets will be fighting pirates.

Keep in mind that all external political relationships are unstable. Consider US/German, US/Japanese and US/French relationships in 1944 and in 1964. Or US/Iran between 1970 and 1990. Or Russia/China in 1950, 1970, 1990 and 2010.

So the assumption that all will be forever lovey dovey between Haven, Manticore and the Andermani seems somewhat naive.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat May 12, 2018 9:09 pm

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Let's keep in mind that the politics of the League will cause change. There will be some trials, etc. There will be a lot of political maneuvering. But the last thing anyone on Sol will want is to look like a thug.

Some planets and sectors may ask for ships. Those that don't will, at least for a while, probably go their own way.

Yes, Sollie ships are good but it is more likely that some planets will be fighting pirates.

Keep in mind that all external political relationships are unstable. Consider US/German, US/Japanese and US/French relationships in 1944 and in 1964. Or US/Iran between 1970 and 1990. Or Russia/China in 1950, 1970, 1990 and 2010.

So the assumption that all will be forever lovey dovey between Haven, Manticore and the Andermani seems somewhat naive.


Things are somewhat different on an interstellar level. In this case, most of the real arguments between Haven and Manticore have been resolved. And Silesia has been nicely split.

Keep in mind that all the leaders realize that the Sollies could and probably will rise again.
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by pappilon   » Sun May 13, 2018 3:31 am

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kzt wrote:Keep in mind that all external political relationships are unstable. Consider US/German, US/Japanese and US/French relationships in 1944 and in 1964. Or US/Iran between 1970 and 1990. Or Russia/China in 1950, 1970, 1990 and 2010.

So the assumption that all will be forever lovey dovey between Haven, Manticore and the Andermani seems somewhat naive.


ldwechsler wrote:Things are somewhat different on an interstellar level. In this case, most of the real arguments between Haven and Manticore have been resolved. And Silesia has been nicely split.

Keep in mind that all the leaders realize that the Sollies could and probably will rise again.



Yes, of course, that was the real reason behind The Harrington Strategy. Either reduce the Uranium atom ro He and H atoms or don't give it a reason th seek revenge (aka revanchism).

The AE is an uneasy partner at best. And its potential growth is now pretty much curtailed. The GA does not need to hold forever, just until their mutual enemy is dealt with. Then they can return to their internicene warfare.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed May 16, 2018 4:44 am

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SharkHunter wrote:In the interest of getting back on track, Solarian cruisers are probably the equal of anyone outside the GA -- and even fairy recent Havenite tech -- until you add the triad of micro-fusion power, Ghost Rider/FTL recon drones, and dual- or mult- drive missiles.

Pre- UH evidences: Gauntlet had trouble getting a fix on the cruisers in Tiberian; Hexapuma was able to get a better look at the opposition because of Ghost Rider. Helen Z. states that if Hexapuma had DD missiles and Mod-G warheads, they'd have gone for kills at Monica, etc. Both of those are supposed to be "not quite state of the art SLN tech"... at the cruiser level

We also have evidence that FF has a LOT of them, as there isn't much text evidence of piracy flourishing in the Shell OR the Verge, instead preferring safer area such as Silesia, etc. that are fundamentally unpoliced.

SNIP

Part of the problem of so many books is keeping the timeline straight.

One of the outcomes of Project Anzio (or Ghost Rider) was the higher capacity capacitors used for the LACs and their missiles, and for the upgraded Mk-13ER and the Mk14/M36 ERM. Without that better energy storage, Havenite cruiser missiles were larger than the Manticoran versions; so were Technodyne's, as evidenced by the the system defense pods used in Monica.

It is worth noting, also, that the nodes on the Mk-16 use the standard 3-minute runtime of the Mk13. What would the range be if they used the longer-endurance nodes from the Mk-14?

Solarian weapons tech isn't really that far behind most of the deployed cruisers; and the only dual drive missiles are the Mk-16's. Compared to other single drive systems, the Javelins have a higher acceleration and more range than the Mk-13, and it seems likely they could come close to the Mk-14 in short order. They had better software for their missile defense available, and had better hardware than software; what they lacked prior to Spindle was any sense of urgency, not a lack of capability.

It is worth noting that the only cruisers with dual drive missiles are the Saganami-C/Burleson class; the deployed Havenite, Andermani, and Solarian cruisers all have single drive missiles. Current new construction in Haven not being introduced yet, it can be left out.

There were quite a lot of ships in HOS that never got a mention in the text until they were filling in the blanks; ships like the Havoc, the Illustrious, and others were essentially unknown to the reader, because they weren't present in the action that was being written. And each new class (Culverin, Valiant, Wolfhound, Avalon) was supposed to be built in sufficient numbers to retire the previous classes--which didn't happen.

And we have no data on the Havenite or Andermani ships, yet. But we do have some data on the Havenite first gen Mars and Warlords from the Protector's Own.

A caveat first: the Saganami class listing in HOS is off--the intro date is actually 1912, they were introduced while Harrington was at Cerberus. There was some discussion about that back when, but it was a while ago. In essence, the Mars was designed to engage a Star Knight/Alvarez, because the Saganami class wasn't in service yet,

Proselyte-class heavy cruiser
Mass: 477,250 tons
Dimensions: 607 x 73 x 61 m
Acceleration: 501.1 G (4.914 kps²)
80% Accel: 400.9 G (3.931 kps²)
Broadside: 11M, 12L, 12CM, 10PD
Chase: 3M, 3G, 4CM, 6PD
Number Captured: 4

Service Life: 1913–present

What is significant about these Havenite classes in this discussion of Solarian ships is that they were built with assistance from Solarian technology firms--at least as far as their sensors, electronics, and missiles went. Also, that Havenite missiles for the Warlords/Mars classes were built very large, in order to both match the range of Manticoran missiles, and to put heavier warheads on them to defeat the better active and passive defenses of the Alvarez and Star Knight classes.

At the time, the improvement in the missiles was noticeable and painful for the RMN. However, in spite of an enormous increase in mass over the previous Sword-class, it has fewer missile launchers than a Star Knight, lacks the grasers of the Star Knight or Alvarez, and is almost 80k-tons heavier than the Saganami A. You could look at that as evidence of poor Solarian capability, but it is more likely the limitations imposed by Havenite manufacturing processes. In the text, the difference is illustrated by Oversteegen's fight in Tiburian as noted above; and by the destruction of Anhur, in Nuncio.

It is worth noting that the Mars increased its armor, pd, and cm launchers(over the Sword-class); it also kept the beam weapons as all lasers, most likely because Haven continues to use the lasers for missile defense and needed as many as possible (and because their targeting algorithms weren't as good.)


From a timing perspective, the Sollie firms involved in assisting Haven (including Technodyne) must have been putting the new first-line new-generation Fleet 2000 ships into service as well, so the Haven systems may very well be just the locally built export versions, so any SLN personnel involved wouldn't have blinked. I don't know of any SLN cruiser data, so compare the Warlord to the Nevada. There is a strong resemblance.

Convert-class battlecruiser
Mass: 918,750 tons
Acceleration: 487.4 G (4.78 kps²)
80% Accel: 389.9 G (3.824 kps²)
Broadside: 26M, 6L, 6G, 16CM, 12PD
Chase: 6M, 2G, 6CM, 6PD
Service Life: 1913–present


Nevada-class battlecruiser
Mass: 911,250 tons
Acceleration: Almost exactly the same as the Warlord, or original Reliant
Broadside: 28M, 12G, 12CM, 16PD
Chase: 6M, 4G, 6CM, 8PD

The Guardian class' missiles had better ecm and penetration aids than Haven had used in the first war, or they wouldn't have done so much damage to Gauntlet; but the text is flawed because RFC wrote it with battlecruisers first, and it didn't get re-edited completely. So the numbers given for salvo density etc aren't reliable. And he didn't say if they were the Javelins the SLN was upgrading to.

After the Mars and Warlords introduced their new, heavier, longer ranged missiles, or maybe at the same time, Manticore introduced an extended range Mk-13, then the heavier Mk-14 that drastically increased the runtime on the nodes. But it seems unfair to fault the Sollies for not having a dual drive cruiser missile, when it was brand new for the RMN in 1919 (Agamemnons had it first).

And with the Malign "helping" them with their threat assessments.

Rob
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Re: Solarian Cruisers (SPOILER)
Post by pappilon   » Wed May 16, 2018 4:04 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote: [ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ] ( cough cough) {SNIP}
After the Mars and Warlords introduced their new, heavier, longer ranged missiles, or maybe at the same time, Manticore introduced an extended range Mk-13, then the heavier Mk-14 that drastically increased the runtime on the nodes. But it seems unfair to fault the Sollies for not having a dual drive cruiser missile, when it was brand new for the RMN in 1919 (Agamemnons had it first).

And with the Malign "helping" them with their threat assessments.

Rob


Yeah, I doubt anyone would fault the SLN's ONI and weapons development departments for being a tad behind the cutting edge of technology. Somehow that is not the problem. The problem is the hubris of Byng, Crandall, Irene Teague's boss, basically all of The SLN that nothing that can be a threat to the Invincible Solaran League Battle fleet (although possibly to a penny packet of ships belonging to the clowns at FF).

They spent 50 years or so pooh poohing, ignoring, just plain burying, reports of weapons development in "The Haven Sector." That is what has attracted all the scorn. Yes, now that their noses have been pretty thoroughly rubbed in their little mess, they are scrambling to catch up, they will find they are not that far behind and it may take the 20 year +/-hiatus the timeline will go dormant to close the gap, which will only put them 20 years behind when our story resumes.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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