Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

SPOILER end of the MA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:22 pm

ywing14
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:40 pm

Sigs wrote:
Vince wrote:
Nike's defensive armament is much more powerful than it first appeared in the books, due to an editing error:


I am not talking about ship to ship comparison, I am talking about a ton for ton comparison. If we had 2.5 million tons of nike vs 2.5 million tons of Sag-C or 2.5 million tons of Roland.

Assuming they have the exact same Mk 16 missile then the Nike is at a disadvantage as they will have even accounting for the printing error still a 2 to 1 disadvantage in missiles. If they launch 100 missiles they will receive 200 missiles from the Sag-C's, if they decide to launch double their broadside it will take them twice as long to launch each wave of missiles but the Sag-C and Roland can both launch double Broadsides as well.

Even if we assume each PD cluster is twice as powerful as the once mounted on the Sag-C the Nike still will have a little less than half of the Sag-C's PD. CM on the other hand I would assume would be the same for all three platforms and there the Sag_c and Roland have a distinct Advantage in CM number over the Nike. For example 5 Sag-C's would still mount 200 CM's in the same tonnage as a nike would mount only 64 CM's.


Now the question is if We had 2 nikes fighting it out what would be the result? Could 100 Mk 16's get through their defences? If 100 Mk16's have a chance of getting through the nikes defences a portion of 150 or 200 definitely have the ability to get through the nikes defences.


I don't care how amazing their passive defences are, dealing with 400 Mk16's at once might be a little too much for them while for the Sag-C's I think they have more combined CM's and PD's and there are more platforms as well so there is a better chance of some of the Sag-C's coming out of the engagement damaged but functional rather than simply destroyed.


how do you get 100 missiles from a Nike and 200 from a Saganami C? Nike has 50 tubes, a Saganami has 40. Nike's stacked salvos would be larger.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:43 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9810
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

I think it’s 50 per broadside.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:38 pm

ywing14
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:40 pm

kzt wrote:I think it’s 50 per broadside.


In At All Costs its listed as a total of 50 missile tubes.

"Nike was the result: a 2.5 million-ton "battlecruiser," almost three times the size of Honor's old ship, but with an acceleration rate thirty percent greater. The old Nike had mounted eighteen lasers, sixteen grasers, fifty-two missile tubes, and thirty-two counter-missile tubes and point defense clusters. The new Nike mounted no lasers, thirty-two grasers—eight of them as chase weapons, fifty missile tubes (none of them chasers), and thirty counter-missile tubes and laser clusters. The old Nike had carried a ship's company of over two thousand; the new Nike's complement was only seven hundred and fifty. And the new Nike was armed with the Mark 16 dual-drive missile. With the "off-bore" launch capability the RMN had developed, she could bring both broadsides' missile tubes to bear on the same target, giving her fifty birds per salvo, as opposed to the older ship's twenty-two. And whereas the old Nike's maximum powered missile range from rest had been just over six million kilometers, the new Nike's missiles had a maximum powered endurance of over twenty-nine million." Chapter 25
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:19 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9810
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

ywing14 wrote:
kzt wrote:I think it’s 50 per broadside.


In At All Costs its listed as a total of 50 missile tubes.

Somewhere I remember reading this was a typo, but apparently if it was David ran with it like the did the LAC years for months typo.

From HOS:
Carrying 50 broadside launchers capable of off-bore firing the Mk16 DDM, the Nike can launch a salvo of 50 missiles into any aspect, and her magazines allow for over 40 minutes of maximum rate fire. The class’ improved compensators allow an acceleration rate thirty percent greater than that of the Reliant-class, despite being over twice the mass of the older unit. While suffering from the greatest “tonnage creep” of any class in RMN history, the Nike well illustrates the RMN’s policy of defining ships by their role and not by their tonnage. This has not prevented the size and classification from creating intense debate. In raw figures, these ships are five times the mass of a Saganami-C, with only a 25% increase in missile tubes. Accusations of poor design by BuShips and even outright incompetence are exacerbated by the fact that the Nike carries the same Mk16 DDM as the Saganami-C.
These critics overlook important difference in the capabilities of the two platforms and their designed missions. The Nike is designed to lead and survive independent long-duration deep-raiding missions in an era dominated by multi-drive missiles. The simple numbers of beam mounts, missile launchers and active defense systems belie qualitative per-mount differences. While a Nike and a Saganami-C may carry the same missile, each of a Nike’s launchers has four times the magazine capacity of her smaller heavy cruiser counterpart. A Nike’s grasers and point defense laser clusters are all superdreadnought grade. Their emitter diameter, plasma beam intensity, gravitic photon conditioning hardware, and on-mount energy storage capacity all rival the most modern capital ships. Finally, much of the Nike’s impressive mass is devoted to passive defense. Screening and sidewall generators have near-capital-ship levels of redundancy. The external armor system, internal mount compartmentalization, outer hull framing, and core hull construction are all designed to at least pre-war superdreadnought standards. Nikes, finally, carry full flagship facilities and incorporate much greater Marine carrying and support capacity. The Saganami-Cs, while impressive space control platforms, have little or none of this capability.
The only reason, in fact, that a Nike might be less survivable than the pre-war superdreadnought is the physical distance between the armor and the core hull. There simply is not enough depth to guarantee the same level of survivability to vital core systems as in a larger capital vessel. Early after-action reports indicate, however, that Nike’s survivability against her intended targets (heavy cruisers and other battlecruisers) has been extraordinary.
Above all other design elements, the addition of the Mark 20 Keyhole platform to the Nike-class allows it a greater level of tactical flexibility than any other warship currently in service. This costs a tremendous amount of mass and creates interesting problems (which some commentators describe as weaknesses) in the armor system. But those costs buy the ability to tether the platforms outside the wedge, which, coupled with the off-bore missile launchers, makes Nike the one of the first warships that can fight an entire engagement with her wedge to the enemy. The telemetry repeaters allow full control of both missiles and countermissiles, and the platforms’ onboard point defenses thicken defensive fire. In addition, the Keyhole platform can act as a “handoff” relay, allowing a Nike to coordinate offensive and defensive missile control for another ship while both keep their wedges to the threat. This flexibility has resulted in vastly increased computational complexity in offensive and defensive engagement programming and helps to explain much of the class’ survivability.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:27 pm

ywing14
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:40 pm

Yeah I think it may have been one but everywhere I look I still see it haha. I just found the missile count to be wrong if both ships are firing quadruple broad sides. Nike's firing 200 and a Sag C is firing 160.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:32 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3368
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Windsor CT.

ywing14 wrote:Yeah I think it may have been one but everywhere I look I still see it haha. I just found the missile count to be wrong if both ships are firing quadruple broad sides. Nike's firing 200 and a Sag C is firing 160.


The Ship Errata in HoS describes pundits complaining about the Nike's small broadside and that it carries just 5 more tubes per broadside than the Sag-C for more than 5x the mass. It's pretty much definitely 25 tubes per broadside.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top

Return to Honorverse