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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:45 pm

Sigs
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Weird Harold wrote:
Why not spend the same amount of money and send cadre to "prep schools" all over the Quadrant and not spend the money to bring a bunch of washouts to Manticore (along with the brainiacs that graduate?

Because Manticore has many universities that could lend a hand, concentrating all of your training in one place allows you to utilize resources that the 16 systems in Talbott don't necessarily have. You need a tutor? Get university students to help since after al you are initially trying to bring their education level up to Manticoran Standards. Beowulf and it's daughter colonies are also close by to send instructors and advisors as well...

That's basically the plan textev says is already in operation with the LAC squadrons, extra simulators and remedial support for Quadrant recruits to the RMN. Bring them up to RMN standards in "home guard" LAC squadrons, transfer the best into "Quadrant Guard" DDs and Cruisers, and send the best of the best to Saganami Island.
One does not exclude the other.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:49 pm

Sigs
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PeterZ wrote:The MAlign strategy was developed because they didn't have the strength to do anything else. They prepared for Haven and Manticore to destroy each other or darned near. The remains of the survivor would be easy meat for the outdated SLN. In the process the SLN would show themselves to be amoral conquistadores. That was the original plan. That plan died when Gram bore its fruit.

Since then the MAlign has been playing catchup with Manticoran military supremacy. ONI will recognize that too.


Thunderbolt.


ONI does not know much. They cannot assume that the MA did what it did because of lack of resources. They may have had motives that the GA cannot imagine. They may have seen an opening that they had to exploit with what they had. Just because they didn't have SD(P)'s by the hundreds to throw around in 1922 does not mean they won't have them by 1925 and the first time the GA finds out they do have them would be as they are coming in to their systems and blowing them to bits.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:51 pm

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Sigs wrote:So? They still have advanced tech nobody else has. Just because no-one else wanted to get it up to this point does not negate the fact that they have it.


They have different revolutionary tech than the GA and Andermani. But it is an Apples to Oranges comparison. IMHO, Manticore's tech is more advanced than the MAlign's and will stand the test of time far better.

The Streak Drive is the only MAlign tech that will ever see wider service than anything the MAlign has yet shown.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:52 pm

Sigs
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Weird Harold wrote:
A Manticoran Destroyer (Roland) or Cruiser, can match the destructive power of any single ship except RMN or RHN SD(P). An RMN BC(P) can match even the RHN SD(P)s. It might take multiple ships in a very few scenarios, but SD(P)s are on the way to obsolete.

You can drop a hundred SD(P)s on Darius (assuming it is ever found) but for the same amount of money and personnel, you can probably drop a thousand BC(L) or BC(P)s or 5,000 Sag-C's or 10,000 Rolands. (or whatever super-destroyer/cruiser comes out of Bolthole and the Demonic Duo)

In the meantime, those smaller ships can be in more places, providing more protection for less cost than any number of SD(p)s

(Note, a BC(L) or BC(p) can utilize Apollo Pods via KHI and light-speed control links and limited FTL control through drones and Hermes buoys. Although Apollo is going to primarily relegated to the system defense role.)


So why were Manticore and Grayson building SD(P)s rather than BC(P)'s, Sag-C's and Rolands?? Why didn't they just focus on pumping out Roland's instead of going for SD(P)'s?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:54 pm

Sigs
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ywing14 wrote:
I don't believe we really know how many systems will leave the SL. DW left that particularly wide open. I am sure most of the protectorates and the shell will leave or try to. But it's pretty uncertain what the core will look like.
My point is that the RF jumped ship too early and that puts them on a short list that I would pay real close attention to if I were the GA.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:56 pm

Sigs
Commodore

Posts: 914
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
They have different revolutionary tech than the GA and Andermani. But it is an Apples to Oranges comparison. IMHO, Manticore's tech is more advanced than the MAlign's and will stand the test of time far better.


How do you know that? Did we get as complete glimpse in to the MA's technological base as we did into Manticore's technological base?

The Streak Drive is the only MAlign tech that will ever see wider service than anything the MAlign has yet shown.
Key phrase is yet shown.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:06 pm

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Sigs wrote:So why were Manticore and Grayson building SD(P)s rather than BC(P)'s, Sag-C's and Rolands?? Why didn't they just focus on pumping out Roland's instead of going for SD(P)'s?


They were in a shooting war against the RHN who had SDPs and CLACs. They are NOT now in a war with a peer opponent, and they have more commitments that can be handled by Cruisers and Destroyer squadrons.

Manticore, at least, has to end the wartime taxes and cope with rebuilding their infrastructure; they can't afford the numbers of SD(p)s they would need to meet their commitments -- especially since SD(P)s aren't the best ships for the jobs.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:07 pm

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I don't think it would be wise to mothball SD (P)s. But given that between them, Manticore, Haven, and Grayson probably have a minimum of a thousand of the things, I really don't see a need to keep building them in perpetuity either. This would be an appropriate time to shift the emphasis to lighter units, bc and down.

By all means, give r&d high priority so you can feed your current units upgrades and have a few surprises on hand for the opposition the next time the shooting starts.

But more SD (P)s wouldn't help against the Alignment at this time. The issue there is stealth. Solve that and the Lenny Dets are only targets like fish in a barrel. And I think it's only a matter of time until that riddle is solved.

Speaking of the Lenny Dets, I recall a trip Albrecht made to Darius and we are told that he saw about 20 Lenny Dets in various stages of construction.. We are not told that he saw everything. So that is still open to speculation unless we have more info on that in UH which I have not read.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:17 pm

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Sigs I'm sorry but your answers are getting too Star Trek/Betty Sue for me.

Your statements all imply unlimited resources and no monetary issues. Manticore and really the RHN have been at war a long time. They are going to have to take a breather as a society. The MAlign's plan isn't military domination. It's societal change towards genetic manipulation. Are there military components to their plan? Yes, but it isn't the primary part. The Rembrant Factor may still work. It can still become a shining beacon. But if the Malign is going to act as you say and invade the entire GA or attack 20 planets then the GA should probably give up now.

The GA is still going to be searching for the MAlign, the GA is still going to be pushing scientific research, the GA will likely still be building ships especially Rolands, Saganami Cs, and Nikes. Which can only occur after they rebuild their shipyard which I believe is still a year away. But it really doesn't make a ton of sense to build SD(P)s until they figure out a way to detect the spider drive. Otherwise they're just wasting hulls as their ships will be swatted with impunity.

Furthermore, the GA is ahead of the Malign in many areas of research just as the Malign is ahead in a few others. Nothing says the Malign is going to magically catch up in those areas. What the GA needs to do now is introduce tree cats to as many individuals with in their military structure as they can to weed out agents. Tree cats will make it virtually impossible to insert agents into the GA they way they previously have.

Focusing on the economy, the new planets in the quadrant, and stabilizing the SL/whatever successor states are created is in the best interests of the GA's long term goals. Do I think 10-20 years from know that the SEM could support a much more robust Navy than it previously had. Sure do, but at this moment it shouldn't be the number 1 priority.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:22 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't think it would be wise to mothball SD (P)s. But given that between them, Manticore, Haven, and Grayson probably have a minimum of a thousand of the things, I really don't see a need to keep building them in perpetuity either. This would be an appropriate time to shift the emphasis to lighter units, bc and down.-


It certainly isn't the time to mothball all of them, but I don't think anyone in-universe has suggested they should or would.

But Elizabeth has said that Manticore would be downsizing the RMN for economic reasons -- that suggests they will be mothballing many of their most expensive ships, eg SD(P)s and older, less automated, smaller ships.

At a guess, Manticore isn't going to be building a lot of new ships of any class but they are going to be buying a bunch from Bolthole and/or Beowulf. Their new ships will make Roland, BC(L)s and Sag-Cs look like rowboats with smooth-bore black-powder cannon. Anyone who focuses on matching the GA numbers in SDs is going to be unpleasantly surprised.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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