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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm

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Sigs wrote:MA has already proven several times over that they are well ahead of the curve technologically.


How so?

They have the Streak Drive which is basically a brute force solution anyone can apply once they know it can be done.

They have the Spider Drive which only has stealth as an advantage and several disadvantages.

They have assassin nanotech, which nobody else wants or condones.

Only the spider drive is revolutionary, and they haven't cracked the simple things like FTL comm, miniaturization, automation, or MDM drive baffles.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:18 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:They have the Streak Drive which is basically a brute force solution anyone can apply once they know it can be done.

Which is why nobody else managed to solve that problem for the last 800 years, right?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:21 pm

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fester wrote:Ships are an expensive way to defend a system. Manticore used forts to defend the Junction for two reasons: For a given dollar/tonnnage/crew member value, the forts can pack significantly more firepower than the biggest, baddest, meanest waller of the same technological generation.


You may be right that ton for ton forts are more powerful than SD(P)s... but SD(P)'s are far superior to forts in one simple way and that is they can move from system to system. What good are forts in Manticore if Trevors star is under attack or vice versa? Forts are specialized weapon systems since they are exclusively for defence as it would be quite hard to take forts with you on the offensive. SD(P)s on the other hand can defend and also bring the fight to the enemy.

Given a choice I would go for the balanced defence approach where forts and other fixed defences are included but to me at least heavy mobile assets are a must when facing an unknown enemy.



Ships of the wall including podnoughts are extremely specialized ships.

So are forts... after all the fort specializes in defence and not offence right? Can't drop 100 forts on Darius if the GA were to find it but you sure can drop 100 SD(P)s.

they are overkill for picketing a system,

Depends on the system and it's importance. Picketing Spindle with SD(P)s is a good idea, picketing a system of no value with SD(P)s maybe not so much


they are overkill for raiding most convoys.

Most


They are perfectly appropriate for engaging and defeating by fire and maneuver enemy fixed defenses and enemy battle fleets.

Something the fort is not suited for... unless the enemy somehow and for some reason brings their fixed defences to your system.

The wall of battle is most useful when one needs to project significant firepower across interstellar distances and the second best use is to use the wall to defend critical targets against opposing walls as the defending ships have the option value of becoming offensive units at some future point.


They also have the ability to withdraw from a system, something the fixed defences do not have. They also have the ability to switch defensive position and reinforcing one system or another much faster and easier than fixed defences.

Let's look at the RMN's threat profile at this time. Haven is a close ally. Grayson is a close ally. The Andermani Empire is a de facto ally. Beowulf is an ally. Erewhon is in the combined Haven-Manticoran sphere of influence. Maya is friendly if not in the sphere of influence. And who else can build modern podnoughts?


The people who killed 7+ million people from Manticore, more than 5 million people from Grayson, more than 6.5 million from Mesa, 46 million from Beowulf if I remember correctly 250,000 in New Tuscany. Just because they have not used them does not mean that they don't have them or can't acquire them. For all they know MAN has 500 or more SD(P)s under construction.

There is no other modern wall of battle out there including the Mesan Alignment Navy.
The GA does not know that. There are plenty of reasons why the Mesan Alignment has not used SD(P)s and it would be criminal to assume its because they don't have them.


The current Solarian wall is obsolete and the successor state(s) of the Solarian League can more effectively defend themselves with fixed fortifications and shoals of missile pods while commerce protection can be done far more effectively with cruisers and destroyers.

That will eventually change but the main threat to the GA is not from the League or successor states, it is from the MA. Afterall the SLN managed to kill less than 20,000 GA members in the entire war while the MA managed to kill in excess of 60 million people.

Who would you be more worried about? The guys who just finished getting crushed in engagement after engagement or the guys who have proven their willingness to kill people by the millions at the first opportunity?

The biggest reasonable future mission RMN is the commerce protection mission as the Solarian successor states will make 1907 PD Silesia look like a well run and safe region to make a living. And for that mission, an incredible number of light cruisers and destroyers are needed where the biggest challenge is sheer numbers for coverage rather than capability of the particular ship (once a minimum floor is met of course)

The biggest mission is to keep the people who just killed over 60 million of your citizens and allies citizens from repeating the performance.

The RMN will need a wall of battle. It will need it to defend the core systems (Manticore Binary, Trevor's Star, Beowulf, Basilak) of the Empire, act as a mobile fire brigade and be able to slice off enough of the wall to act as the Hammer of God for Eridani Edict enforcement in the League Succession Wars. It does not need enough of a wall to hold off the Havenites or the Solarians attacking into Manticore Binary's fixed defenses.

What about the 16 systems in Talbott or ~30 systems in Silesia? Are they to be defended with light units only? I'm sure that will do wonders for the unity of the empire if Manticore and Trevor star get real fleets while Talbott and Silesia gets defences that will have to roll over and play dead if a technologically equal opponent comes a knocking.

So forting up the core systems of the Empire with tens of thousands of Apollo pods and Mycroft centers based in super-dreadnought hulls or forts as the central control node, covering secondary systems with thousands of Apollo pods and a few LAC wings with nodal reaction forces and then maintaining a powerful counter-attacking force makes sense. SD-Ps can go into reserve if the RMN needs to maintain both the construction capacity and the ability to mobilize 300-400 wallers in a short period of time over the next twenty years.
With fixed defences it becomes every system for itself much like what the Americans did to Japan in WW2. You can have 16 systems that combined have 5 times your firepower but it is divided in 16 systems so you can pick and choose where and when to hit each system and defeat them in detail. Relying on mothballed ships means the war might be over before the first one comes to active service.

The RMN's focus is going to be on lighter ships as the mission and threat has changed.
The mission and threat has not changed. The primary mission is to defend Manticore, it's people and territory. Support and defend allies and distant second would be to protect commerce. Manticore is at war, Beowulf is at war, Haven is at war, Grayson is at war. They may not know where the enemy is, how strong the enemy is or how advanced he is but they know he is there and the proof of that is the bodycount.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:23 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Maybe I can see your problems with this, however, I'm sorry RFC did not end the book the way you wanted it ended.

There's at least two ways to go: (1) We beat the 800 kilo gorilla but the 800 kilo guerilla is still lurking out there. Lets celebrate our one victory and still be vigilant for the other. (2) Ok we kicked sand in the face of the 85# sissy-boy so now we gotta be terrified of his 800kilo big brother.

David wrote #1 and you wanted #2?



The SLN killed less than 20,000 of the GA's people in the entire war while the MA killed 60+million people... who is the bigger threat?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 pm

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Sigs wrote:Bring them to Manticore and start putting them through remedial training to bring it up to an acceptable level and then start training them for service in the RMN.


Why not spend the same amount of money and send cadre to "prep schools" all over the Quadrant and not spend the money to bring a bunch of washouts to Manticore (along with the brainiacs that graduate?

That's basically the plan textev says is already in operation with the LAC squadrons, extra simulators and remedial support for Quadrant recruits to the RMN. Bring them up to RMN standards in "home guard" LAC squadrons, transfer the best into "Quadrant Guard" DDs and Cruisers, and send the best of the best to Saganami Island.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:35 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Sorry but ONI will conlclude the MAlign can't do everything. They couldn't overwhelm the GA because they don't have the resources. They attacked the Home world of Manticore the way they did because they did not have the forces to attack more directly and completely. Had they been close to gathering enough force to make an overwhelming attack, they would have.

And how do their know how close they are to getting the overwhelming force? Maybe they were forced to improvise, or they didn't want to fight a war, they might have wanted the League and Manticore Alliance to fight a war. Just because they didn't have enough ships in 1922 doesn't mean anything since the GA doesn't even know where the MA is, or what their end objective is. After all Haven didn't have any SD(P)'s in 1915 right? But they had plenty of SD(P)s in 1919 an Manticore knew where most of Haven's industry was. So what makes the MA so incompetent as to be unable to replicate the accomplishments of Haven?

That being thee case, the RMN will keep their SDPs in mothballs while they expand their lighter units. Those lighter units will work to expand their Grand Alliance. That expanded Alliance will put the SEM in a position of having the material resource advantage while they continue to R&D their butts off with S&S, the demonic duo.
And how long would it take to mobilize those SD(P)s in the event of a war? You are depending on the MA to make a mistake and attack too early or show their hand with enough time to allow you to mobilize your reserves. Im all for having reserves but I am definitely against depending almost exclusively against those reserves being the majority of your wallers.

Doing ANYTHING else will be shooting in the dark. Preparing for the MAlign while ignoring what can be done to improve the current opportunities is suboptimal to say the least.
And when the MA comes knocking they might not give you enough time to prepear. The first sign of trouble could be their fleets crushing the industry in Tallbott and you won't be able to do a thing as you won't be able to reinforce those systems without opening Manticore or Beowulf and living them the opportunity to crush your mighty mothballed fleet.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
They have the Streak Drive which is basically a brute force solution anyone can apply once they know it can be done.

Same goes for SD(P)'s, FTL comms, LAC's multi stage missiles... the MA are the only people using it... therefore they are technologically advanced in this one field.

They have the Spider Drive which only has stealth as an advantage and several disadvantages.
And look what it has let them accomplish up to this point...

[quotes]They have assassin nanotech, which nobody else wants or condones.[/quotes] So? They still have advanced tech nobody else has. Just because no-one else wanted to get it up to this point does not negate the fact that they have it.

Only the spider drive is revolutionary, and they haven't cracked the simple things like FTL comm, miniaturization, automation, or MDM drive baffles.
As far as we know and the people in universe don't know even that.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:42 pm

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Sigs wrote:SD(P)s on the other hand can defend and also bring the fight to the enemy.

Given a choice I would go for the balanced defence approach where forts and other fixed defences are included but to me at least heavy mobile assets are a must when facing an unknown enemy.

...

Can't drop 100 forts on Darius if the GA were to find it but you sure can drop 100 SD(P)s.

...


A Manticoran Destroyer (Roland) or Cruiser, can match the destructive power of any single ship except RMN or RHN SD(P). An RMN BC(P) can match even the RHN SD(P)s. It might take multiple ships in a very few scenarios, but SD(P)s are on the way to obsolete.

You can drop a hundred SD(P)s on Darius (assuming it is ever found) but for the same amount of money and personnel, you can probably drop a thousand BC(L) or BC(P)s or 5,000 Sag-C's or 10,000 Rolands. (or whatever super-destroyer/cruiser comes out of Bolthole and the Demonic Duo)

In the meantime, those smaller ships can be in more places, providing more protection for less cost than any number of SD(p)s

(Note, a BC(L) or BC(p) can utilize Apollo Pods via KHI and light-speed control links and limited FTL control through drones and Hermes buoys. Although Apollo is going to primarily relegated to the system defense role.)
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:43 pm

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Sigs wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Sorry but ONI will conlclude the MAlign can't do everything. They couldn't overwhelm the GA because they don't have the resources. They attacked the Home world of Manticore the way they did because they did not have the forces to attack more directly and completely. Had they been close to gathering enough force to make an overwhelming attack, they would have.

And how do their know how close they are to getting the overwhelming force? Maybe they were forced to improvise, or they didn't want to fight a war, they might have wanted the League and Manticore Alliance to fight a war. Just because they didn't have enough ships in 1922 doesn't mean anything since the GA doesn't even know where the MA is, or what their end objective is. After all Haven didn't have any SD(P)'s in 1915 right? But they had plenty of SD(P)s in 1919 an Manticore knew where most of Haven's industry was. So what makes the MA so incompetent as to be unable to replicate the accomplishments of Haven?

That being thee case, the RMN will keep their SDPs in mothballs while they expand their lighter units. Those lighter units will work to expand their Grand Alliance. That expanded Alliance will put the SEM in a position of having the material resource advantage while they continue to R&D their butts off with S&S, the demonic duo.
And how long would it take to mobilize those SD(P)s in the event of a war? You are depending on the MA to make a mistake and attack too early or show their hand with enough time to allow you to mobilize your reserves. Im all for having reserves but I am definitely against depending almost exclusively against those reserves being the majority of your wallers.

Doing ANYTHING else will be shooting in the dark. Preparing for the MAlign while ignoring what can be done to improve the current opportunities is suboptimal to say the least.
And when the MA comes knocking they might not give you enough time to prepear. The first sign of trouble could be their fleets crushing the industry in Tallbott and you won't be able to do a thing as you won't be able to reinforce those systems without opening Manticore or Beowulf and living them the opportunity to crush your mighty mothballed fleet.

The MAlign strategy was developed because they didn't have the strength to do anything else. They prepared for Haven and Manticore to destroy each other or darned near. The remains of the survivor would be easy meat for the outdated SLN. In the process the SLN would show themselves to be amoral conquistadores. That was the original plan. That plan died when Gram bore its fruit.

Since then the MAlign has been playing catchup with Manticoran military supremacy. ONI will recognize that too.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:44 pm

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quote]


It is...to a degree. It would be one thing if there were dozens of nations forming out of the remnants of the League but it is a completely different situation when it is only low single digits of multi system nations emerge from the League and the League still remains the largest nation in history. And when the league is being cleaned up and the majority of multi-system nations align with the GA then that kind of puts the GA's intelligence branches on alert.[/quote]

I don't believe we really know how many systems will leave the SL. DW left that particularly wide open. I am sure most of the protectorates and the shell will leave or try to. But it's pretty uncertain what the core will look like.
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