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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:27 am

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Theemile wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Those SLN BCs are the reason the Haven Sector has to produce export warships. If they don't, the Solarian League 2.0 controls who gets those ships without counter balance. That control will mean star nations closest to the SL 2.0 becomes most secure, while all others are less secure. So while the GA is not the SEM, the GA has common cause with the SEM to improve the lot of those star nations most friendly with the GA nations.

GA nations can't possibly supply all the warships demanded, but not ramping up production means their allies will be dependent on the kindness of the new League. Not a proposition ex-Protectorates will take kindly to, nor one to engender trust in the GA. It would strike many newly independent star nations that the GA isn't really interested in any sort of change beyond that which improves the GA's lot. While providing those export warships does allow those newly independent systems a chance at establishing their own sovereignty and true independence.


And that's where the RMN should leverege it's Silesian shipyards. Adapt a tried export quality design - Say a modded 1900 Chanson/Apollo/Star Knight design, and upgrade those yards to build them in bulk. It keeps those idle hands busy while providing important, Imperial jobs to the Sector.

It allows the fleet yards to concentrate on maintaining the rebuilding the fleet while upping the # of export ships available.

Haven, of course just needs to sell an export version of it's Mars class CAs, and similar DD/CLS.

Between the Silly yards and the old RTU star systems, there should be ample capacity to build export warships for those star nations in the Quadrant's galactic hemisphere. I suspect MARS and Erewhon will supply their hemisphere. I suspect the galactic south is up for grabs. That is for hyper capable designs. LACs for systems defense should be easy enough to produce for Haven and the Imperial yards. IIRC, Haven and Manticore produced thousands of them relatively quickly. Repaying that feat for export designs should be easy enough. That leaves Beowulf to expand their missile production for export versions.

No matter how one looks at it, building capacity will be directed at lighter units with the Imperial yards right sized for their immediate needs. I don't see a huge investment in heavy combatants under those circumstances. Sure, the RMN will revamp SDP designs and commission a steady inflow. I just doubt there will be a big investment in expanding the number of their current SDP designs.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:41 pm

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Theemile wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
And that's where the RMN should leverege it's Silesian shipyards. Adapt a tried export quality design - Say a modded 1900 Chanson/Apollo/Star Knight design, and upgrade those yards to build them in bulk. It keeps those idle hands busy while providing important, Imperial jobs to the Sector.

It allows the fleet yards to concentrate on maintaining the rebuilding the fleet while upping the # of export ships available.

Haven, of course just needs to sell an export version of it's Mars class CAs, and similar DD/CLS.

Between the Silly yards and the old RTU star systems, there should be ample capacity to build export warships for those star nations in the Quadrant's galactic hemisphere. I suspect MARS and Erewhon will supply their hemisphere. I suspect the galactic south is up for grabs. That is for hyper capable designs. LACs for systems defense should be easy enough to produce for Haven and the Imperial yards. IIRC, Haven and Manticore produced thousands of them relatively quickly. Repaying that feat for export designs should be easy enough. That leaves Beowulf to expand their missile production for export versions.

No matter how one looks at it, building capacity will be directed at lighter units with the Imperial yards right sized for their immediate needs. I don't see a huge investment in heavy combatants under those circumstances. Sure, the RMN will revamp SDP designs and commission a steady inflow. I just doubt there will be a big investment in expanding the number of their current SDP designs.


I can still seeing the Fleet yards being busy; Manticore, in specific, has several points it needs to achieve.

1) Replace the legacy fleet - ~80 Nikes got caught fitting out or completing, over 20 of the 80+ Agamemnons were lost in battle, and no where near enough Avalons and Rolands were completed to replace the 1900 era light escort fleet. While the fleet mix has changed from what was needed due to the growth of the SEM, doctrine changes, and the new political reality, the remnants of the legacy fleet requires replacement. The big question is whether ERM designs require replacement, or just the last of the SDM fleet. And at that, should the ERM fleet go into reserve, or be sold to close allies.

2) Train the shipyards. New shipyards, new hardware, new workers. They need to be seasoned in the new RMN specific technologies so when the next generation of hardware is required, it can be replaced quickly.

3) Low level production of SD(s). Even if you don't require more, you need to keep the knowledge and training of workers, and the construction infrastructure, In place and working so when a new design (or simply, more ships) are required, the shipyards are still available to produce them.

4) All production designs need shaken down. Low level production of all designs whether required or not, needs to start just to validate the design and construction capability. this way any problems are found during low level production when there is time to rectify, not later when it is required to ramp up production.

And we are looking at 1925-27 before the Manticore fleet yards reach "operating" capacity. A lot can happen between then and now that change the calculus, but these basic assumptions
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm

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it is an stressing question as to what replace the legacy fleet and while the rolands have proven useful but as others have pointed out, the mk 16 is way more missile then a DD really needs.

so that and as it is no longer "hot" war so as a means to make the budget go further (more ships for the money) means that I imagine that the DDs will be wolfhounds.

CLs will stay avalons, which are a solid design.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:50 pm

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Dauntless wrote:it is an stressing question as to what replace the legacy fleet and while the rolands have proven useful but as others have pointed out, the mk 16 is way more missile then a DD really needs.

so that and as it is no longer "hot" war so as a means to make the budget go further (more ships for the money) means that I imagine that the DDs will be wolfhounds.

CLs will stay avalons, which are a solid design.


The other question will be is the Wolfhound/Roland adequate for the anti-piracy/long range patrol mission? You are right - it is a great warfighter and strategic scouting platform, and can perform commerce raiding/protection with the best of them.

Unfortunatey, both designs have miniature crews, (Roland 63 and the Wolfhound 83), and no Marines. That has been found as a hinderance for other traditional DD/CL roles. So that asks, should the DD be removed from the anti-piracy and patrol role, and just be used as an offensive platform? That only CLs (Avalon and Kamerling) be used in the rest of the roles?
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:14 pm

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where do you find the no marines for a wolfhound? I'm not saying you are wrong but HOS doesn't say a thing about them, one way or the other.

then again HOS doesn't mention the lack of marines on a Roland either.


IT could well be that they will remove DDs from patrol/escort and use them more as raiders, at least those with DDMs.

I admit if i was the one making the decsion I would struggle:

a wolfhound is smaller so cheaper, quicker to build and (assuming it does have marines) can also fill in for a CL doing patrol/anti pirate work.

the roland is a pure warfighter and with Mk 16 carries a big stick in small and cheap package compared to a Sag C. very good for making any solly with a chip on the shoulder think twice or a pirate when he knows you can vape him from 3 times his own range. hard to outrun a missile with that much range.


I wonder if they will take the time needed to replace the yards, to take a longer look at performance data between the two and finally decide which is better. might also have enough data to start on improving the avalon.

avalon design is solid and like the FSV and Sag C is clearly something that someone managed to sneak past jancek when he wasn't really paying attention but i'm sure Sonja if not both of he demonic duo have some new tricks up their sleeves for lighter combatants.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:31 pm

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I suppose what is built will be what the author decides :lol:
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:39 pm

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Dauntless wrote:where do you find the no marines for a wolfhound? I'm not saying you are wrong but HOS doesn't say a thing about them, one way or the other.

then again HOS doesn't mention the lack of marines on a Roland either.


IT could well be that they will remove DDs from patrol/escort and use them more as raiders, at least those with DDMs.

I admit if i was the one making the decsion I would struggle:

a wolfhound is smaller so cheaper, quicker to build and (assuming it does have marines) can also fill in for a CL doing patrol/anti pirate work.

the roland is a pure warfighter and with Mk 16 carries a big stick in small and cheap package compared to a Sag C. very good for making any solly with a chip on the shoulder think twice or a pirate when he knows you can vape him from 3 times his own range. hard to outrun a missile with that much range.


I wonder if they will take the time needed to replace the yards, to take a longer look at performance data between the two and finally decide which is better. might also have enough data to start on improving the avalon.

avalon design is solid and like the FSV and Sag C is clearly something that someone managed to sneak past jancek when he wasn't really paying attention but i'm sure Sonja if not both of he demonic duo have some new tricks up their sleeves for lighter combatants.


I could be wrong - The Marine thing is from the dusty places in my memory from a MWW post discussing the "spring-style" Roland design, several years before we ever saw a Roland in action. He referenced both the Avalon and Wolfhound (neither by name), with the "conventional destroyer" being 2/3rds the costs, but less the 1/3 the capability of the Roland, with no advantages other than cost and build time. In later conversations he mentioned that they were both supposed to be minimalist designs with no marines with eyes towards appeasing Janacheck. The LERM also was never mentioned.

Oddly, the first mention of the LERM was in the OOPSIE for Shadow of Saganami. In the OOPSIE, at the battle of Monica the Aegis CL added it's shipkiller missiles to the Hexapuma's fire a couple of salvos before the legacy RMN ships fired theirs, demonstrating that the newish CL had new, longer ranged missiles, but not the dual drive Mk 16s. In the final version, the Aegis opened fire with the rest of the squadron, though it's long range countermissiles backed up the Hexapuma's.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:55 pm

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Dauntless wrote:the roland is a pure warfighter and with Mk 16 carries a big stick in small and cheap package compared to a Sag C. ...


The Rolands are also "Squadron Flagships" as all have "Flag Decks" to fill the shortfall in suitable flagships in legacy DDs and CLs. That's one of the reasons for arming them with cruiser-weight missiles; so they can travel with a pack of CLs without hampering their capabilities by requiring extra protection.

Essentially, the Roland was sold as capable of filling every DD role, every CL Role, and provide Squadron level Command and Control with dedicated Flag accommodations. It just happens to also be a far more effective "war fighter" than expected.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:40 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dauntless wrote:the roland is a pure warfighter and with Mk 16 carries a big stick in small and cheap package compared to a Sag C. ...


The Rolands are also "Squadron Flagships" as all have "Flag Decks" to fill the shortfall in suitable flagships in legacy DDs and CLs. That's one of the reasons for arming them with cruiser-weight missiles; so they can travel with a pack of CLs without hampering their capabilities by requiring extra protection.

Essentially, the Roland was sold as capable of filling every DD role, every CL Role, and provide Squadron level Command and Control with dedicated Flag accommodations. It just happens to also be a far more effective "war fighter" than expected.


Yeah this is what I recall as well.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:17 pm

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Theemile wrote:The Office of Frontier Services is dismantling - NOT the Frontier Fleet of the Solarian League Navy.

Yes, FF was essentially OFS's puppet, but they are not the same organization, and FF's breakup was not part of Honor's terms - just it's immediate withdraw to SL space was. It is not going away any time soon,

That being said, it's mandate will probably change, as the volume it needs to patrol has drastically shrunk.

At the same time, over the last 2 years the RMN has picked off ~10% of Frontier Fleet. It still is a massive beast, but it is smaller then it was when this all stared.

So will it's disposition change? Most assuredly. Will it sell off unnecessary ships? Possibly. Will we see a liquidation of the FF or major portions of it? Extremely doubtful.


When core and shell systems leave the League, SLN personnel from those worlds will likely leave as well. When they leave the league just like any nation breaking up the newly independent nations should get a proportional number of ships.


At this point the SLN would be more then willing to let go of a lot of ships, granted when they do it will be a small % but even a small % of 6,000-10,000 adds up. I would think that if the GA suggested that surplus ships were "donated" to systems approved by the GA the SLN might not have much problems with. They will be busy reorganizing and rebuilding for at least a decade if not more...that is if they don't break up before then.
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