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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 am

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n7axw wrote:Ha! How many of America's conflicts have been accompanied by a formal declaration since WW2? Not many. The closest we get is authorization by Congress to use force.

The GA on the other hand, faces an enemy committed to its destruction and is committed to the destruction of that enemy. Both OB and what happened at Beowulf were acts of war resulting in millions of casualties. That the GA is unable at this time to pursue a conventional strategy doesn't change the fundamental reality of the matter one bit...Webster not withstanding.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:I am with Don here. The MAlign declared war on Haven and Manticore. They may not have made that declaration public, but they have acted as if a state of war exists with both these star nations. The GA have declared war on that polity. The only resources the GA can devote to this war at the moment are inteligence gathering and counter intel assets. The Afgan War, a hot war, was largely fought by US intel assets looking for the enemy. Once the enemy's location is discovered, active military operations commence.


You guys play with words as if they have no meaning. A state of war and a declaration of war are miscible. We can have a state of war: Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Afghanistan Iraq Syria, Quardophenia with no declaration of war. We can also have random acts of war: The Pueblo Incident, The US bombing of Libya, The Israeli bombing of Hezb'ollah positions in Syria with no real state of war existing. Quit paying willful ignorance.

There is no state of war existing if all the attacks are virtually random terror attacks. Which is what the sum total of 3 attacks (4 if you count New Tuscany)on civilians with no advance warning amounts to. Yes, granted the attacks on the orbital platforms also have a military component, but still a lot of preventable civilian deaths. And like pearl Harbor an act of terror.

There is a state of hostility. But tell me Haven or Grayson or Manticore is expecting an attack by the MAlign's invisible ships any time in the next week?. Tell me you actually believe Manticore is going to launch an attack on Darius.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 15, 2018 7:38 am

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pappilon wrote:
n7axw wrote:Ha! How many of America's conflicts have been accompanied by a formal declaration since WW2? Not many. The closest we get is authorization by Congress to use force.

The GA on the other hand, faces an enemy committed to its destruction and is committed to the destruction of that enemy. Both OB and what happened at Beowulf were acts of war resulting in millions of casualties. That the GA is unable at this time to pursue a conventional strategy doesn't change the fundamental reality of the matter one bit...Webster not withstanding.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:I am with Don here. The MAlign declared war on Haven and Manticore. They may not have made that declaration public, but they have acted as if a state of war exists with both these star nations. The GA have declared war on that polity. The only resources the GA can devote to this war at the moment are inteligence gathering and counter intel assets. The Afgan War, a hot war, was largely fought by US intel assets looking for the enemy. Once the enemy's location is discovered, active military operations commence.


You guys play with words as if they have no meaning. A state of war and a declaration of war are miscible. We can have a state of war: Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Afghanistan Iraq Syria, Quardophenia with no declaration of war. We can also have random acts of war: The Pueblo Incident, The US bombing of Libya, The Israeli bombing of Hezb'ollah positions in Syria with no real state of war existing. Quit paying willful ignorance.

There is no state of war existing if all the attacks are virtually random terror attacks. Which is what the sum total of 3 attacks (4 if you count New Tuscany)on civilians with no advance warning amounts to. Yes, granted the attacks on the orbital platforms also have a military component, but still a lot of preventable civilian deaths. And like pearl Harbor an act of terror.

There is a state of hostility. But tell me Haven or Grayson or Manticore is expecting an attack by the MAlign's invisible ships any time in the next week?. Tell me you actually believe Manticore is going to launch an attack on Darius.



However you might want to describe it, what we have now certainly isn't peace with its implication that the GA can afford to relax and let its military shrink to peacetime levels.

As for your questions, yes, Manticore, Haven, and Grayson should be expecting more attacks and doing what they can to prepare against them.

As for Darius, again the answer is yes. When the GA finds Darius, it will be attacked and forced to surrender and its war making capacity destroyed.

It has been said that terrorism is the means by which the weak wage war on the strong. Especially when the terror is state sponsored, it is as much war as the invasion of a nation's borders by a division of tanks.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Vince   » Tue May 15, 2018 9:19 am

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Sigs wrote:
pappilon wrote:Human nature being what it be, grief dissipates over time. So unless someone is out there in the media constantly stoking the furnace of hatred and resentment, those Civilian deaths will cease to be a driving force in society lacking a visible enemy.
And it is the governments job to remind the people, luckily at least one GA member has a head of state that cannot be voted out.

If you are referring to Queen* Elizabeth, the Star Kingdom's monarch cannot be voted out, but can be removed as the monarch:
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (4) The Star Kingdom of Manticore, (A) Founding and Early History wrote:In cases of disagreement between the Crown and both houses of Parliament, the Lords serve as the supreme judiciary without right of veto by Crown or Commons. The strongest safeguards of the common population lie in (1) the Commons' power to approve or disapprove budgets, (2) the Constitutional requirement that the Prime Minister command a majority in the Commons, and (3) the right to remove the monarch.
It is up to the Crown (actually, the Cabinet), and not the Commons, to initiate economic policy and propose budgets, and the Crown has an additional discretionary fund drawn from the extensive Crown lands and industrial holdings, but the Crown and Lords both know that they cannot long defy the Commons if the lower house decides to withhold budget approval. The fact that the Prime Minister, although serving at the Crown's pleasure, must also be able to poll a majority in the House of Commons (a similar majority in the House of Lords is not a constitutional requirement, although most PMs who cannot generally resign their office), also helps to insure that the viewpoint of the Star Kingdom's commoners will always be heard at the highest level. Finally, the Manticoran monarchy is one of the very few hereditary forms of government with a specific provision for the removal of a monarch for reasons other than incapacitation or criminal action. A monarch may be impeached for any reason, including but not limited to "high crimes and misdemeanors," by a two-thirds majority vote of the House of Commons. Impeachment proceedings may not begin in the House of Lords, and a three-quarters vote of both houses is required to actually remove a monarch. Although this constitutional provision has never been used and is now regarded by many constitutional authorities as a vestigial holdover from pre-monarchy days, it has never been removed, and the possibility of its exercise remains.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

If you are referring to the Protectorship of Grayson, I have found no text evidence that provides any legal means for removing a Protector.

* Queen of the Star Kingdom of Manticore. The text quoted applies to the Star Kingdom, as it was written and the book in which it was published long before the Star Empire came into existence. Whether or not the provision carried over into the Star Empire's constitution has not yet been mentioned in the Honorverse books.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Tue May 15, 2018 8:41 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
ywing14 wrote:Pirates generally avoid direct confrontations with Warships. They don't make their money destroying Warships, they make by plundering cargo and ransoming crews. They don't want to fight the GA that's why convoy escorts are important. additionally blowing a single pirate ship out of space doesn't take as many missiles as battling a fleet.

How is a MAlign pirate fleet going to bleed the GA by dozens of cruisers and destroyers monthly? The only ships that can match the GA in combat either belong to GA or the Malign. Any "pirate fleet" they'd use would want to avoid using their own vessels as it would risk exposing the Malign to being found. Could a plethora of pirates overwhelm a GA vessel. Sure it's possible but without literally enlisting hundreds of pirate vessels I don't see what your saying as possible.


Sounds like what's needed are some purpose-built Q-ships. They look and act like frieghters, but their weapons and armor are built to military specs. Don't just make pirates stay away, blow them out of space.


I feel that Q-ships wouldn't be as useful at the moment. The Star Kingdom used them only out of desperation and a lack of availability of other vessels. I don't believe the GA is under the same restrictions now. Further, they'd be more expensive than destroyers and cruisers given the size we are talking about with purpose built ships as opposed to conversions.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue May 15, 2018 9:49 pm

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kzt wrote:Q-ships are a horribly expensive approach. And effectively worthless against a raider who just shoots at them from a couple LM out. There is a reason no navy in the honorverse runs them, and it isn’t that nobody though of them.


I was suggesting them for getting rid of pirates, not as warships. The GA just created a big pirate mess, it's going to need to thin them out. Pirates will run if they suspect a warship, they'll close to energy range with a "freighter".

Any ship usually used for piracy suppression will be awfully small to be a freighter.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 15, 2018 10:06 pm

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The advantage of Q-ships is that they can be disguised to draw raiders into comfortable range. The drawback, of course, is they are quite fragile and it doesn't take many hits to knock one out.

There are Q-ships and then there are Q-ships. In terms of being able to absorb punishment, Peep Q-ships like Sirrus in OBS were purpose built and tougher customers than the Manty caravans which were really only merchant conversions. They weren't invincible though, as Honor and Fearless were to demonstrate.

So should the alliance build Q-ships? Perhaps they would be useful in limited numbers, bearing in mind that they will be far more useful against garden variety pirates than against naval commerce raiding. If a decision was made to do that, I would go with the purpose built ships rather than conversions.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue May 15, 2018 10:52 pm

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n7axw wrote:The advantage of Q-ships is that they can be disguised to draw raiders into comfortable range. The drawback, of course, is they are quite fragile and it doesn't take many hits to knock one out.

There are Q-ships and then there are Q-ships. In terms of being able to absorb punishment, Peep Q-ships like Sirrus in OBS were purpose built and tougher customers than the Manty caravans which were really only merchant conversions. They weren't invincible though, as Honor and Fearless were to demonstrate.

So should the alliance build Q-ships? Perhaps they would be useful in limited numbers, bearing in mind that they will be far more useful against garden variety pirates than against naval commerce raiding. If a decision was made to do that, I would go with the purpose built ships rather than conversions.

Don

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I think a few points are way off base.

Piracy works only when it has some real planetary bases. Silesia
was totally corrupt. A lot of the most corrupt have been removed and I bet the Andermanni are a lot tougher than the Manticorans.

With treecats involved, it gets far more difficult. With a treecat, questioning can be far more specific. And since all of Silesia is either under Manticore or Anderman, treecats could provide a viable means of questioning.

But I have another point. It makes more sense for MAlign to stay quiet for a while. There won't be much opposition to their ideas of improvement. RFC wrote that much of what they wanted has already been accepted.

If they keep quiet, they can grow far stronger before trying to do a breakout. If they were patient enough to wait a century, they could probably "improve" a lot of people on a lot of planets and use prolong so they will be around for a very long time, cutting back on casual losses.

Chances are, it won't happen. As Eric Flint wrote, wars are far more interesting than anything static.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Wed May 16, 2018 3:14 am

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n7axw wrote:However you might want to describe it, what we have now certainly isn't peace with its implication that the GA can afford to relax and let its military shrink to peacetime levels.


Showme textev that that is what Empress Elizabeth I is suggesting. "We cannot maintain our current level of building" is not the same as "We are rturning to levels before the first Haven war" or even "we are returning to the build down under Janacek."

n7axw wrote:As for your questions, yes, Manticore, Haven, and Grayson should be expecting more attacks and doing what they can to prepare against them
.

And how do you prepare for or defend against what happened at New Tuscany and Beowulf? With no way to detect that invisible drive, how do you defend against Yawata 2.0? How is the US preparing against the next mass shooting in a school?

n7axw wrote:As for Darius, again the answer is yes. When the GA finds Darius, it will be attacked and forced to surrender and its war making capacity destroyed.


Sue but at the end of UH are they preparing the fleet for an attack? Have they been developing their attack profiles and gaming them? Is there a launch date for the attack? No, No and NO.

n7axw wrote:It has been said that terrorism is the means by which the weak wage war on the strong. Especially when the terror is state sponsored, it is as much war as the invasion of a nation's borders by a division of tanks.

Don

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Sure each sneak attack or terror bombing by Darius is another act of war. And being acts to instill terror makes them terror attacks. And as such they are at irregular and unpredictable intervals. And the victim cannot strike back.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Wed May 16, 2018 3:32 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
n7axw wrote:The advantage of Q-ships is that they can be disguised to draw raiders into comfortable range. The drawback, of course, is they are quite fragile and it doesn't take many hits to knock one out.

There are Q-ships and then there are Q-ships. In terms of being able to absorb punishment, Peep Q-ships like Sirrus in OBS were purpose built and tougher customers than the Manty caravans which were really only merchant conversions. They weren't invincible though, as Honor and Fearless were to demonstrate.

So should the alliance build Q-ships? Perhaps they would be useful in limited numbers, bearing in mind that they will be far more useful against garden variety pirates than against naval commerce raiding. If a decision was made to do that, I would go with the purpose built ships rather than conversions.

Don

-


I think a few points are way off base.

Piracy works only when it has some real planetary bases. Silesia
was totally corrupt. A lot of the most corrupt have been removed and I bet the Andermanni are a lot tougher than the Manticorans.

With treecats involved, it gets far more difficult. With a treecat, questioning can be far more specific. And since all of Silesia is either under Manticore or Anderman, treecats could provide a viable means of questioning.

But I have another point. It makes more sense for MAlign to stay quiet for a while. There won't be much opposition to their ideas of improvement. RFC wrote that much of what they wanted has already been accepted.

If they keep quiet, they can grow far stronger before trying to do a breakout. If they were patient enough to wait a century, they could probably "improve" a lot of people on a lot of planets and use prolong so they will be around for a very long time, cutting back on casual losses.

Chances are, it won't happen. As Eric Flint wrote, wars are far more interesting than anything static.


There's Pirates and there's Privateers. What might not work for a pirate can work very well for a privateer under Letters of Marque. And there is also Case Buccaneer.

Q-ships can work both ways, and I agree that going with Haven's purpose built Q-ships is the better idea, although if there are enough idled freighters, hiring them can help the cause and the owners.

Not sure how much treecats can help if members of the MAN or RF are captured and refuse to talk. Shoving them out of an air lock gives you nothing.

Almost makes sense. It would if they would abandon the rule the world scheme and just go with general genetic uplift, staying quiet would work. I doubt the Alpha lines of Darius will be content being among the 3rd standard deviation.

Low level "Case Buccaneer" is their best plan. Q-ships would be best but war ships work too. Since they are SDF ships and crews, they do not need a Silesia. And it satisfies the Eric Flint plot device.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 16, 2018 8:26 am

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pappilon wrote:
n7axw wrote:However you might want to describe it, what we have now certainly isn't peace with its implication that the GA can afford to relax and let its military shrink to peacetime levels.


Showme textev that that is what Empress Elizabeth I is suggesting. "We cannot maintain our current level of building" is not the same as "We are rturning to levels before the first Haven war" or even "we are returning to the build down under Janacek."

n7axw wrote:As for your questions, yes, Manticore, Haven, and Grayson should be expecting more attacks and doing what they can to prepare against them
.

And how do you prepare for or defend against what happened at New Tuscany and Beowulf? With no way to detect that invisible drive, how do you defend against Yawata 2.0? How is the US preparing against the next mass shooting in a school?

n7axw wrote:As for Darius, again the answer is yes. When the GA finds Darius, it will be attacked and forced to surrender and its war making capacity destroyed.


Sue but at the end of UH are they preparing the fleet for an attack? Have they been developing their attack profiles and gaming them? Is there a launch date for the attack? No, No and NO.

n7axw wrote:It has been said that terrorism is the means by which the weak wage war on the strong. Especially when the terror is state sponsored, it is as much war as the invasion of a nation's borders by a division of tanks.

Don

-


Sure each sneak attack or terror bombing by Darius is another act of war. And being acts to instill terror makes them terror attacks. And as such they are at irregular and unpredictable intervals. And the victim cannot strike back.


Eventually the GA will get it figured out. Each attack provides a broader information base on MA tactics and capabilities. I would suspect that bolthole is working hard on both the spider and the streak. And if they can duplicate the spider they probably will be able to detect it although it will remain difficult.

As for preparing against an attack, at the moment what they can do is heavy conventional defenses and hoards of recon drones. That is undoubtedly inadequate at the moment. But enough drones would have a chance of catching the heat sourses from the Ghosts. And the situation is not static. Mycroft's vulnerabilities have been exposed. That can be studied and dealt with. And other wrinkles will come up that can be added to the mix will come up.

As for Darius it will be found. We don't know how or when yet. And when it happens Darius will be dealt with.

My point is that the GA is at war. The nature of the conflict is different than when it was only a matter of dealing with the other guy's SD(p)s. But it is still a "war to the knife", as Prince Roger would put it. The current phase will emphasize both intel and counter intel, applied research, and above all lots of patience.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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