Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 148 guests

SPOILER end of the MA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:13 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11354
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Sigs wrote:The RMN is not that big to begin with, their SD(P)'s have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1/5-1/6 of the crew of an SLN SD. even if we assume they have 1,000 other ships with 1,000 are members per ship which they don't but lets assume that they do this would add up to about 1.2 million people. If we were to use the SLN model of 84% of their navy personnel in support roles and only 16% in ships that means that the RMN's total strength would be in the neighbourhood of 7.5 million which might be accurate because they still have Forts. So the RMN has 7.5 million people or less out of a total population of 3.5 billion in the old SKM. And I am not suggesting they immediately grab those ships and man them, there would obviously be a need for expansion which would allow them to incorporate the Talbott militaries and bring up some people through the training pipeline.

The word of god is that the RMN is as large (in manpower) as it can be before inflicting crippling damage to the economy. That was BEFORE someone blew up the entire heavy industry and shipbuilding facilities.

It's been argued extensively here, and we've been told that we were wrong. So you'll have to take it up with David.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:30 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

kzt wrote:
Sigs wrote:The RMN is not that big to begin with, their SD(P)'s have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1/5-1/6 of the crew of an SLN SD. even if we assume they have 1,000 other ships with 1,000 are members per ship which they don't but lets assume that they do this would add up to about 1.2 million people. If we were to use the SLN model of 84% of their navy personnel in support roles and only 16% in ships that means that the RMN's total strength would be in the neighbourhood of 7.5 million which might be accurate because they still have Forts. So the RMN has 7.5 million people or less out of a total population of 3.5 billion in the old SKM. And I am not suggesting they immediately grab those ships and man them, there would obviously be a need for expansion which would allow them to incorporate the Talbott militaries and bring up some people through the training pipeline.

The word of god is that the RMN is as large (in manpower) as it can be before inflicting crippling damage to the economy. That was BEFORE someone blew up the entire heavy industry and shipbuilding facilities.

It's been argued extensively here, and we've been told that we were wrong. So you'll have to take it up with David.


Yeah, it was the severe shortage of manpower that forced Manticore toward automation to start with. Eeventually the Quadrant will help. But that is a ways down the road.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Vince   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:16 am

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

kzt wrote:There was this little war...
n7axw wrote:Not an informative response... Are you suggesting that the fund was completely tapped durung the wars with Haven? Or that it was confiscated during the war with the League? What?

Don
kzt wrote:The final war happened. Pretty much every city was destroyed, some absurd percentage of the population died.

The Manticoran Colony Trust managed to maintain a positive net worth, which was fortunate for the original Manticoran colonists. Without that positive net worth, Manticore would have been taken over by claim jumpers, or become a failed colony after the Plague struck.
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (4) The Star Kingdom of Manticore (A) Founding and Early History wrote:The original colony expedition to Manticore departed Old Earth on October 24, 775 pd, aboard the sublight hibernation ship Jason for the Manticore Binary. Manticore, approximately 512 light-years from Earth, was a G0/G2 distant binary first confirmed to have planets in 562 pd, by the astronomer Sir Frederick Clarke. Its distance from Sol was such that the voyage would take 640.5 years (just over 384 subjective years), requiring that each colonist be waked for exercise seven times. Accordingly, the colonists were investing about 4.5 years of their lives (and all of their money) in the voyage.
Sixty percent of the colonists were Western Europeans, with most of the remainder drawn from the North American Federation, the Caribbean, and a very small minority of ethnic Ukrainians. The total expedition consisted of 38,000 adults and 13,000 minor children, and the "rights" to the system had been purchased at auction from the survey firm of Franchot et Fils, Paris, France, Old Earth. "FF" (as it was known) had a high reputation, and its survey ship Suffren had made the same voyage in just twenty years. Suffren's crew had done FF's usual, professional job, although, of course, all data was accompanied by the caution that it would be 650 years out of date when the colonists arrived, and FF sold its rights in the Manticore System to the Manticore Colony, Ltd., for approximately 5.75 billion EuroDollars. As part of the transfer of rights, FF expunged all data on the system from its memory banks, transferring the information to the Federal Government of Earth's World Data Bank's maximum security files. This was a standard safeguard to protect Manticore Colony against the occupation of the planet by later expeditions with faster ships, as it was already apparent that advances in hyper travel might well make such protection necessary, yet it was also recognized that there was no way to guarantee that faster, more capable hyperships would not beat the colonists to Manticore. Accordingly, Roger Winton, President and CEO of Manticore Colony (already elected first Planetary Administrator) opted to establish the Manticore Colony Trust of Zurich.
The MCT's purpose was to invest all capital remaining to the MC after mounting the expedition (something under one billion EuroDollars) and use the accrued interest to watch over the colonists' rights to their new home.
It was a wise precaution, for when Jason finally arrived in the Manticore System on March 21, 1416 pd, her crew discovered a modest settlement on the planet they christened Manticore, but it was staffed by MCT personnel who also manned the four small Earth-built frigates protecting the system against claim-jumpers. Indeed, so well had the Trust done in the last six centuries that Manticore found itself with a very favorable bank balance, and the frigates became the first units of the Manticoran System Navy (later the Royal Manticoran Navy). Moreover, the small MCT presence on Manticore included data banks and carefully selected instructors assigned to update the colonists on the technical advances of the last six centuries. This last was a feature even Winton had not anticipated, and he had very good reason to be pleased both with his own decision and the diligence, foresight, and imagination with which a succession of MCT managers had discharged their duties.
It was as well that the colony had such unusual support and off-world financial strength, however, for after almost forty years in which things went perfectly, disaster struck Manticore in 1454.
The initial bid for Manticore had been so high for two reasons. One was that the G0/G2 binary was highly unusual—indeed, unique—in having no less than three planets suitable for human life. The second was that Manticore and Sphinx, the two Earth-like planets orbiting the G0 stellar component, were extremely Earth-like. Although each had its own unique biosphere, survey reports indicated that terrestrial life forms would find it unusually easy to adapt to all three, and so, indeed, it proved. Terran food crops did well, and while the local flora and fauna could not provide all essential dietary elements, much of it was digestible by the terrestrial visitors. Terraforming requirements thus were extraordinarily modest, consisting of little more than the need to seed food crops and selected terrestrial grasses to support imported herbivores. Unfortunately, that very ease of adaptation had a darker side, and Manticore proved one of the very few extra-terrestrial systems to possess microorganisms which could (and did) prey on humans.
The culprit was a virus—or, rather, a small family of viruses—which had been missed by the original survey team. Some virologists argue that it was not, in fact, missed but rather evolved in the six centuries between the initial survey and the arrival of the colonists. Still others suggest that it was actually the mutated descendant of a virus the colonists had brought with them from Old Earth. Whatever the truth of the matter, the virus was deadly, producing a condition analogous to virulent influenza and pneumonia simultaneously in its victims. Worse, it proved resistant to all existing medical technology, and ten years were to pass before a successful vaccine was found.
In that decade, almost sixty percent of the original colonists died. Their Manticore-born children fared better against the disease, experiencing a generally less violent manifestation of it, yet without the cushion provided by the MCT funds on Old Earth and the evolution of the Warshawski Sail hypership, the entire expedition would no doubt have come to grief.
As it was, the colony found itself in urgent need of additional homesteaders. These were recruited from Old Earth (yet another process made much easier by the existence of the MCT), but the original colonists, concerned about retaining control of their own colony, adopted a radically new constitution before opening their doors to emigration.
Roger Winton had been reelected continuously to the post of Planetary Administrator, serving superbly in the position throughout the early settlement period and the plague crisis. He was now an old man (over eighty) whose wife and two Terra-born sons had died of the plague, but he remained vigorous and his Manticore-born daughter Elizabeth showed promise at least equal to his. At fifty-three, she was President of the Board of Directors (effectively vice-president of the colony) and one of Manticore's preeminent jurists. Since she had a large and thriving brood of second-generation Manticoran children and her family had served so outstandingly, a convention of colony shareholders converted the Corporation's elective board into a constitutional monarchy and crowned Roger Winton King Roger of Manticore on August 1, 1471.
It was a post he was to enjoy for only three years before his death, but his daughter succeeded him as Elizabeth I in a smooth and popular transfer of power, and the House of Winton has ruled the Star Kingdom of Manticore ever since. Simultaneously, the surviving "First Shareholders" and their descendants, who held title to vast tracts of land (including most of the richest mineral resources of Manticore and Sphinx) and/or to extra-planetary resources in the Manticore System, acquired patents of nobility to go with their wealth, and the hereditary aristocracy of Manticore was born.
The new wave of immigrants arriving in the wake of the Plague comprised three distinct classes of citizen. Each immigrant received a credit whose value precisely equaled the cost of a second-class passenger ticket from the Solarian League to Manticore. That credit could be converted, at the holder's option, into a land credit on a planetary surface or into a share of equivalent value in any of several orbital and deep space industrial concerns. Most of the new immigrants, faced with virgin planets on which to live, opted for homestead rights there, although some of the sharpest among them made careful investments in the Star Kingdom's industrial infrastructure which later proved of enormous worth, instead.
Any individual capable of paying his own passage received the full credit upon arrival, whereas those incapable of paying their passage could draw upon MCT for a dollar amount equal to their credit to cover the difference between their own resources and the cost of passage. In addition, an immigrant whose resources were greater than the cost of his passage could invest the surplus, paying 50% of the "book" price for additional land and/or investment. The most affluent immigrants thus became "Second Shareholders," with estates (whether in terms of land or industrial wealth) which, in some cases, rivaled those of the original shareholders and entitled them to patents of nobility junior to those of the existing aristocracy. Those immigrants who were able to retain their base land right or perhaps enlarge upon it slightly became "yeomen," free landholders with voting rights beginning one Manticoran year (1.73 Terran Standard Years) after their arrival. Those who completely exhausted their credit to buy passage to Manticore were known as "zero-balance" immigrants and did not become full citizens until such time as they had become well-enough established to pay taxes for five consecutive Manticoran years (8.7 Terran Standard Years). While all Manticoran subjects are equal in the eyes of the law, whether enfranchised to vote or not, there were distinct social differences between shareholders, yeomen, and zero-balancers, and even today there is greater prestige in claiming a yeoman as a first ancestor than in claiming a zero-balance ancestor. And, of course, direct descent from a full shareholder is the most prestigious of all.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

The original Manticoran colonists aboard Jason literally slept through Earth's Final War.
More Than Honor, A Beautiful Friendship, I wrote:Stephanie squelched glumly across the mud to the steep-roofed gazebo. Everything on Sphinx had a steep roof, and she allowed herself a deep, heartfelt groan as she plunked herself down on the gazebo steps and contemplated the reason that was true.
It was the snow, of course. Even here, close to Sphinx's equator, annual snowfall was measured in meters—lots of meters, she thought moodily—and houses needed steep roofs to shed all that frozen water, especially on a planet whose gravity was over a third higher than Old Earth's. Not that Stephanie had ever seen Old Earth . . . or any world which wasn't classified as "heavy grav" by the rest of humanity.
She sighed again, with an edge of wistful misery, and wished her great-great-great-great-whatever grandparents hadn't volunteered for the Meyerdahl First Wave. Her parents had sat her down to explain what that meant shortly after her eighth birthday. She'd already heard the word "genie," though she hadn't realized that, technically at least, it applied to her, but she'd only started her classroom studies four T-years before. Her history courses hadn't gotten to Old Earth's Final War yet, so she'd had no way to know why some people still reacted so violently to any notion of modifications to the human genotype . . . and why they considered "genie" the dirtiest word in Standard English.
Now she knew, though she still thought anyone who felt that way was silly. Of course the bioweapons and "super soldiers" whipped up for the Final War had been bad ideas, and the damage they'd done to Old Earth had been horrible. But that had all happened five hundred T-years ago, and it hadn't had a thing to do with people like the Meyerdahl or Quelhollow first waves. She supposed it was a good thing the original Manticoran settlers had left Sol before the Final War. Their old-fashioned cryo ships had taken over six T-centuries to make the trip, which meant they'd missed the entire thing . . . and the prejudices that went with it.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by fester   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:15 pm

fester
Captain of the List

Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:33 pm

Sigs wrote:After reading UH some things came to mind, how the MA plans fell apart in the last half of the book and the direction of the GA’s military in the last few pages.


The other thing that really caught my attention is something I am having problems agreeing with. When near the last few pages Elizabeth informs the people she is talking to that the RMN will likely have to demobilize at least in part my first question was why?

At most the RMN has 150 SD(P)’s and that is me being generous while they now have to defend 50-60 systems of their own plus dozens more that at either wishing to join the Empire or would be too important as trade partners or politically important to ignore their needs. Demobilizing even a few SD(P)’s seems like a recipe for disaster. They have so many new systems of their own to protect and with so few ships it seems like the thing to do if you want to get crushed.


Ships are an expensive way to defend a system. Manticore used forts to defend the Junction for two reasons: For a given dollar/tonnnage/crew member value, the forts can pack significantly more firepower than the biggest, baddest, meanest waller of the same technological generation.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/84/1

Ships of the wall including podnoughts are extremely specialized ships. They are only really good/cost effective at blowing up other ships. And they are less cost-effective at blowing up other, heavily armed ships than fixed defenses (of the same generation) They are overkill for convoy escort, they are overkill for showing the flag, they are overkill for picketing a system, they are overkill for raiding most convoys. They are perfectly appropriate for engaging and defeating by fire and maneuver enemy fixed defenses and enemy battle fleets. The wall of battle is most useful when one needs to project significant firepower across interstellar distances and the second best use is to use the wall to defend critical targets against opposing walls as the defending ships have the option value of becoming offensive units at some future point.

Let's look at the RMN's threat profile at this time. Haven is a close ally. Grayson is a close ally. The Andermani Empire is a de facto ally. Beowulf is an ally. Erewhon is in the combined Haven-Manticoran sphere of influence. Maya is friendly if not in the sphere of influence. And who else can build modern podnoughts?

There is no other modern wall of battle out there including the Mesan Alignment Navy. The current Solarian wall is obsolete and the successor state(s) of the Solarian League can more effectively defend themselves with fixed fortifications and shoals of missile pods while commerce protection can be done far more effectively with cruisers and destroyers.

The biggest reasonable future mission RMN is the commerce protection mission as the Solarian successor states will make 1907 PD Silesia look like a well run and safe region to make a living. And for that mission, an incredible number of light cruisers and destroyers are needed where the biggest challenge is sheer numbers for coverage rather than capability of the particular ship (once a minimum floor is met of course)

The RMN will need a wall of battle. It will need it to defend the core systems (Manticore Binary, Trevor's Star, Beowulf, Basilak) of the Empire, act as a mobile fire brigade and be able to slice off enough of the wall to act as the Hammer of God for Eridani Edict enforcement in the League Succession Wars. It does not need enough of a wall to hold off the Havenites or the Solarians attacking into Manticore Binary's fixed defenses.

So forting up the core systems of the Empire with tens of thousands of Apollo pods and Mycroft centers based in super-dreadnought hulls or forts as the central control node, covering secondary systems with thousands of Apollo pods and a few LAC wings with nodal reaction forces and then maintaining a powerful counter-attacking force makes sense. SD-Ps can go into reserve if the RMN needs to maintain both the construction capacity and the ability to mobilize 300-400 wallers in a short period of time over the next twenty years.

The RMN's focus is going to be on lighter ships as the mission and threat has changed.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:52 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

kzt wrote:There was this little war...
n7axw wrote:Not an informative response... Are you suggesting that the fund was completely tapped durung the wars with Haven? Or that it was confiscated during the war with the League? What?

Don
kzt wrote:The final war happened. Pretty much every city was destroyed, some absurd percentage of the population died.
Vince wrote:The Manticoran Colony Trust managed to maintain a positive net worth, which was fortunate for the original Manticoran colonists. Without that positive net worth, Manticore would have been taken over by claim jumpers, or become a failed colony after the Plague struck.

Let's eview the timeline.

Jason left in 775 P.D.
The Solarian League was founded in 925P.D.
The final War "officially" over in 943 P.D.
Jason arrives in 1416 P.D.

The Manticoran Colony Trust then had approximately 125 years to invest those funds before the precursors of Final War would have begun to roil markets. Assuming a 3% average after tax compound annual rate of return, that's approximately $40 billion. Had the Trust diversified as was prudent, they would have slowly begun investing gains in the colonies like Beowulf. Assuming only $1BN of the Trust survived the Final War and all of it was outside Sol, that's $1BN earning interest for 516 years. If we assume the same after tax interest rates, that's $4,207TR. If only $1M survived, that's $4.2TR.

There is nothing unreasonable with David's assumption regarding the wealth of the Manticoran Colony Trust. If anything he has to assume close to the worst case scenario to align the Stephanie Harrington and Travis Long stories.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:59 pm

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

fester wrote:
Sigs wrote:After reading UH some things came to mind, how the MA plans fell apart in the last half of the book and the direction of the GA’s military in the last few pages.


The other thing that really caught my attention is something I am having problems agreeing with. When near the last few pages Elizabeth informs the people she is talking to that the RMN will likely have to demobilize at least in part my first question was why?

At most the RMN has 150 SD(P)’s and that is me being generous while they now have to defend 50-60 systems of their own plus dozens more that at either wishing to join the Empire or would be too important as trade partners or politically important to ignore their needs. Demobilizing even a few SD(P)’s seems like a recipe for disaster. They have so many new systems of their own to protect and with so few ships it seems like the thing to do if you want to get crushed.


textev wrote:The fact that a lot of people see the way we cleaned the Solarian League’s clock as proof that we’re the new-model ‘invincible star nation’ isn’t calculated to help me and [Eloise?] sleep soundly at night, either.” She grimaced. “You and Hamish are the historians, but I’ve read a little history myself. If there’s anything in the universe more dangerous than complacency, I don’t have a clue what it might be.”

...

“And it’s not made any better by the fact that you brought home everything in the Solarian League Navy’s databanks.” Elizabeth sighed. “Everybody knows you got it, too, so the complacency brigade is sitting around in a blissful haze contemplating the fact that we know exactly what the League was up to and, therefore, what it’s capable of.”

“They do remember Operation Thunderbolt, don’t they, Your Majesty?” Alfred Harrington asked. “I seem to remember that the despised Peeps managed to overcome a fairly severe technological deficit.”

“Honestly, Commodore Harrington, how could you even imagine I’d be be so crass and crude as to point that out to them?”


Doesn't sound to me like ANYONE in the GA is taking the MA lightly or being complacent about their (MA) abilities



even more textev wrote:“I know the hunt for the rest of your ‘onion’ is really only just getting started, Honor, but I have to tell you, I’m not optimistic about our dragging them back into the open until they’re damned well ready to come back out into the open.”

“I’m not giving up hope, but I’m afraid that’s what the odds favor,” Honor agreed.

“Which is why we have to maintain a strong military posture. I don’t see any way in hell we could maintain the fleet strength we have right now. There are megatons of totally valid domestic reasons to cut naval funding now that the League’s not a threat and we’ve pretty much established we can kick anybody’s ass,” Elizabeth said bluntly. “Manticore has enough of a naval tradition, and enough interstellar commitments, that maintaining a powerful fleet won’t be that great a challenge. Maintaining one as powerful as the one we have now is likely to be impossible, though. And Haven’s navy will probably be under even more pressure to retrench. Partly, I’m afraid, because the Havenite Navy acquired a lot of…negative associations under the Legislaturalists that the Royal Navy’s never had to deal with.”


Maybe I can see your problems with this, however, I'm sorry RFC did not end the book the way you wanted it ended.

There's at least two ways to go: (1) We beat the 800 kilo gorilla but the 800 kilo guerilla is still lurking out there. Lets celebrate our one victory and still be vigilant for the other. (2) Ok we kicked sand in the face of the 85# sissy-boy so now we gotta be terrified of his 800kilo big brother.

David wrote #1 and you wanted #2?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1446
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

PeterZ wrote:

So the RMN will expand their DDs, CLs and CAs. Of course there will be constant expansion of the Nikes, but not nearly at the same pace as the lighter units. The SDPs will be mothballed until the rest of the galaxy proves they can build something that can take out a Nike with ease. At that point ONI will assume the MAlign can as well and begin expanding the SDPs in service. By then the Quadrant will have begun contributing a greater number of personnel to the RMN. The greater population pool will make the expansion much less stressful both on the population and the economy of the Empire.

MA has already proven several times over that they are well ahead of the curve technologically. Comparing known quantities with those that are unknown is just asking for trouble. No-one knows where the base of the MA is, if it is one system or 100 systems. No one know how technologically capable they are except to say very capable. No one knows if the MA Navy is small, medium or big. For all they know the MA could have a few hundred SD(P)s of their own already in commission or approaching completion.


The MA may wait for the GA to demobilize and launch their version of operation thunder bolt and then what? The RMN has 100-150 SD(P)'s for 50-60 systems that is 2-3 SD(P)s per system. Keeping Home Fleet, one fleet in Talbott and one Fleet in Silesia and the RMN is stripped of heavy mobile assets, mo ability to react to any discovery or opening and definitely no ability to protect their territory from even 20-30 SD(P)'s of lower quality.

Given what the Graysons did with Manty investments, I would guess the Quadrant would approximate that growth on average. Likely less than Grayson achieved on average, but places like Dresden could well exceed Grayson's economic growth rates. Even 2-3 more Graysons would make a significant contribution to the RMN.

I would assume the MA is aware of that fact as well... so when they are likely building up their fleets why would the GA stand down their own fleets? And more to the point if the MA is aware of that fact wouldn't it be in their best interest to say I don't know destroy that investment and or start conquering it?
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:43 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1446
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

kzt wrote:
Sigs wrote:The RMN is not that big to begin with, their SD(P)'s have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1/5-1/6 of the crew of an SLN SD. even if we assume they have 1,000 other ships with 1,000 are members per ship which they don't but lets assume that they do this would add up to about 1.2 million people. If we were to use the SLN model of 84% of their navy personnel in support roles and only 16% in ships that means that the RMN's total strength would be in the neighbourhood of 7.5 million which might be accurate because they still have Forts. So the RMN has 7.5 million people or less out of a total population of 3.5 billion in the old SKM. And I am not suggesting they immediately grab those ships and man them, there would obviously be a need for expansion which would allow them to incorporate the Talbott militaries and bring up some people through the training pipeline.

The word of god is that the RMN is as large (in manpower) as it can be before inflicting crippling damage to the economy. That was BEFORE someone blew up the entire heavy industry and shipbuilding facilities.

It's been argued extensively here, and we've been told that we were wrong. So you'll have to take it up with David.


I was under the impression that it was as large as it could be without negatively affecting the civilian economy at the start of the First war with Haven... I would assume that it is well beyond that point now.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:45 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1446
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

n7axw wrote:
Yeah, it was the severe shortage of manpower that forced Manticore toward automation to start with. Eeventually the Quadrant will help. But that is a ways down the road.

Don

-



The faster they start, the faster the new members from the Quadrant can come into active service.

Bring them to Manticore and start putting them through remedial training to bring it up to an acceptable level and then start training them for service in the RMN.
Top
Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:08 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Sigs wrote:
PeterZ wrote:

So the RMN will expand their DDs, CLs and CAs. Of course there will be constant expansion of the Nikes, but not nearly at the same pace as the lighter units. The SDPs will be mothballed until the rest of the galaxy proves they can build something that can take out a Nike with ease. At that point ONI will assume the MAlign can as well and begin expanding the SDPs in service. By then the Quadrant will have begun contributing a greater number of personnel to the RMN. The greater population pool will make the expansion much less stressful both on the population and the economy of the Empire.

MA has already proven several times over that they are well ahead of the curve technologically. Comparing known quantities with those that are unknown is just asking for trouble. No-one knows where the base of the MA is, if it is one system or 100 systems. No one know how technologically capable they are except to say very capable. No one knows if the MA Navy is small, medium or big. For all they know the MA could have a few hundred SD(P)s of their own already in commission or approaching completion.


The MA may wait for the GA to demobilize and launch their version of operation thunder bolt and then what? The RMN has 100-150 SD(P)'s for 50-60 systems that is 2-3 SD(P)s per system. Keeping Home Fleet, one fleet in Talbott and one Fleet in Silesia and the RMN is stripped of heavy mobile assets, mo ability to react to any discovery or opening and definitely no ability to protect their territory from even 20-30 SD(P)'s of lower quality.

Given what the Graysons did with Manty investments, I would guess the Quadrant would approximate that growth on average. Likely less than Grayson achieved on average, but places like Dresden could well exceed Grayson's economic growth rates. Even 2-3 more Graysons would make a significant contribution to the RMN.

I would assume the MA is aware of that fact as well... so when they are likely building up their fleets why would the GA stand down their own fleets? And more to the point if the MA is aware of that fact wouldn't it be in their best interest to say I don't know destroy that investment and or start conquering it?

Sorry but ONI will conlclude the MAlign can't do everything. They couldn't overwhelm the GA because they don't have the resources. They attacked the Home world of Manticore the way they did because they did not have the forces to attack more directly and completely. Had they been close to gathering enough force to make an overwhelming attack, they would have.

That being thee case, the RMN will keep their SDPs in mothballs while they expand their lighter units. Those lighter units will work to expand their Grand Alliance. That expanded Alliance will put the SEM in a position of having the material resource advantage while they continue to R&D their butts off with S&S, the demonic duo.

Doing ANYTHING else will be shooting in the dark. Preparing for the MAlign while ignoring what can be done to improve the current opportunities is suboptimal to say the least.
Top

Return to Honorverse