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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:35 pm

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n7axw wrote:Manticore is under no obligation to protect anybody's commerce but its own and its allies.

However I can see some smaller systems with piracy problems coming to Manticore looking for help and agreeing to a fee based compensation structure. That might mean expanding the number of light units further, but if someone is helping pick p the tab, why not?

Don

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I doubt the GA will agree to offer such services. That's just too similar to how OFS started out. Provide services and charge fees for what the locals should be able to do themselves. If they can't they truly aren't sovereign and need to join a multi stellar polity like the Andermani Empire or the Mayans.

Financing for their systems defense weapons is one thing. Providing a subscription service for systems defense is quite another. Now, once the starsystem can defend itself and wants to join the GA or a regional alliance on good terms with the GA, that's another matter.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:06 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
You keep saying your ideas come with a timeline but in fact they don't. Look at the USA? They had a timeline too. 15 years later there are still troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can sit here all day and say there is a timeline or that you have a timeline in mind. But that's completely meaningless. Because by specifically stationing LACs you're making those worlds dependent on you for security. How can you sit here and honestly say all of those worlds will be ready to govern or protect themselves in 5-10 years? You can't!

The US caused the problem in Iraq and Afghanistan by removing the governments in question, granted they were POS government to begin with but once you remove the government you have a certain obligation to continue until the job is done. In the case of the verge/protectorates using 2 examples from 5,000 years of human history might not be that accurate. The verge/protectorates want independence, they will get it either way. Either they get their act together and get their government and military going and continue with a good relationship between themselves and the GA or they end up losing a golden opportunity. If the locals don't behave in a fashion the GA finds acceptable the GA can simply pull out and leave them to figure it out all alone. No violence required, no threat of violence no occupation. Frontier Security started by trying to "civilize" everyone wether they wanted it or not and eventually morphed into what they ended up. The GA should do the opposite, give everyone a chance on a limited time frame and leave those who fail to take advantage while assisting those who take advantage of the opportunity.





I'm not saying you need thousands of light vessels doing anti-piracy. However, I feel that if the GA has about 600 SDs that they probably have at the very least a couple thousand lighter vessels. Trying to place 30 LACs in these various systems which are not going to be able to provide any real support to them is much more expensive then having a couple hundred light vessels plodding the space ways and making stops at various planets.
And that would be the perfect time to start developing at least rudimentary capability to maintain their LAC's at least to some limited degree. Taking the responsibility for commerce protection without trying to transfer the responsibility to the locals eventually is asking to turn into Frontier Security and whats worse, having "a couple of hundred light vessels" moving from system to system means that the system they just left and the system they are going to are now completely open to pirates, if you have 200 light warships and 600 or 1,000 systems to cover your ships will spend a lot more time traveling between systems then actually protecting those systems so you end up with only a fraction of your ships ever being on patrol at any one time. If I see an RMN CA leaving the system and with so few ships to go around I know they will not be back for at least 6 months this means that I have a 6 month window to do as I please. So that means you invest 200 warship for a mission they will not be able to accomplish and you do it in the most inefficient way possible while also pissing off everyone for failing.




How is Silesia a bad example of commerce protection? You can argue shoulda woulda coulda all day for the political situation there all day. But you can't ignore what the queen and honor said.
They spend 200-300 years patrolling 60 systems and trying to protect them and the SKM's commerce from piracy, what they accomplished is to keep Silesia pirate infested as ever, sustain a consistent low number of casualties and damage and at the point in time when they couldn't sustain the anti-piracy patrols the piracy problem ballooned to the point that it might have led to suspension of trade. At this point the GA will be dealing with verge/protectorates and there would be many of them, dealing with 800 or 1,000 of them in the short term means that some will succeed and some will fail those that succeed good on them, they will be welcomed as trade partners and allies, those that fail will be ignored until they change their ways or become a problem for the GA to deal with.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:50 pm

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The Silesian problem was solved by forcing local star nations that WILL NOT stamp or piracy to join a multistellar polity that will willingly or not. The same solution will work for the Verge and Protectorates. Either local star nations will defend their local space and fight any inclination to establish a piracy support infrastructure or find themselves incorporated into a multistellar polity. I am sure there are enough Meyers-like star nations around willing to become an empire as a last resort. The Andermanis or Mayans may want first dibs or the SEM may find the option attractive.

Which multistellar polity matters less than there will not be a pirate friendly base in that system. If the locals want their independence, they will find a way to defend their star systems from pirates using their system as a support base. Against other star nations, there will be regional alliances and tent illy the GA.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:10 pm

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Sigs wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Presumably, they won't be required in MARS space, Andermani Space, RF space, reformed SL space, or any of the peripheral multi-system politi's space; any place with sufficient commerce protections and/or lack of pirates, privateers and commerce raiders preying on RMMM ships.
So why are you so against making as much of the rest of space as safe?

Weird Harold wrote:The RMN/Grand Fleet is clearly going to have more territory to patrol, but not anything like all of Human Space, or really not more than a small fraction of Human Space where pirates and privateers interact with GA ships.
Which won't require that much in terms of number then...right?

Weird Harold wrote:It's not like the GA is going to be the only government dealing with pirates and privateers.
But you seem to be against encouraging the affected governments from building a navy to protect their own area...


I don't think you've actually read anything I've posted.

1: I've consistently said that it will be up to the diplomats what the extent of military and trade interaction with other systems will be. Some systems will totally reject any assistance from the GA and others will snivel their way into total dependence on the GA.

2: I've consistently said that the GA will only be one of many arms merchants competing for system defense system contracts and warship sales. I can easily see a MAG command forming to train and equip nations that want to be responsible for their own defense and/or regional commerce protection. (MAG==Military Assistance Group)

3: The GA will need to have more ships suitable for long-patrols and convoy escort because the former range of the RMMM is going to be somewhat chaotic for the next couple of decades, at least. Even with regional mutual defense organizations building safe and stable regions, there will be an increase in pirates and privateers. As Silesia proved, a multi-system government with a substantial navy is no guarantee that commerce is safe.

4: The GA has to provide commerce protection, home defense, and a credible counter to the MAlign. The first two are relatively simple, but until they know more about the MAlign's military forces, they can't even begin to build an effective counter. Will spider drive detectors on existing ships be sufficient, or will they need something radically new. What they know now is that the MAlign appears to be working on a shoe-string budget and prefers asymmetrical warfare.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:24 pm

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Sigs wrote:They spend 200-300 years patrolling 60 systems and trying to protect them and the SKM's commerce from piracy,


The RMN never attempted to protect Silesian systems from pirates. Pirates very seldom attacked systems anyway. Privateers were a different matter, but as long as privateers left SKM shipping alone, the RMN didn't interfere.

Sigs wrote:at the point in time when they couldn't sustain the anti-piracy patrols the piracy problem ballooned to the point that it might have led to suspension of trade.


The "piracy problem" that led to the Trojans being deployed in HAE, was RHN state sponsored commerce raiding, NOT piracy.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:52 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
I don't think you've actually read anything I've posted.

1: I've consistently said that it will be up to the diplomats what the extent of military and trade interaction with other systems will be. Some systems will totally reject any assistance from the GA and others will snivel their way into total dependence on the GA.

2: I've consistently said that the GA will only be one of many arms merchants competing for system defense system contracts and warship sales. I can easily see a MAG command forming to train and equip nations that want to be responsible for their own defense and/or regional commerce protection. (MAG==Military Assistance Group)

3: The GA will need to have more ships suitable for long-patrols and convoy escort because the former range of the RMMM is going to be somewhat chaotic for the next couple of decades, at least. Even with regional mutual defense organizations building safe and stable regions, there will be an increase in pirates and privateers. As Silesia proved, a multi-system government with a substantial navy is no guarantee that commerce is safe.

And with Silesia as an example, multi-system government with a substantial navy who don't maintain their space relatively pirate free might cease to exist as a multi-system government with a substantial navy. In Silesia the piracy was state-sponsored and the only reason it was not curb earlier was due to SKM's internal politics and the political situation with the Andermani. The protectorates/verge would have no such problems to consider as they could be dealt with individually as it comes up.



4: The GA has to provide commerce protection, home defense, and a credible counter to the MAlign. The first two are relatively simple, but until they know more about the MAlign's military forces, they can't even begin to build an effective counter. Will spider drive detectors on existing ships be sufficient, or will they need something radically new. What they know now is that the MAlign appears to be working on a shoe-string budget and prefersasymmetrical warfare.


The RMN cannot provide home defence for itself if let alone anyone else, and if the RHN is cutting down its wallers too they won't be in a position to be helping too many people. On the other hand spreading the fixed defences out to the newly independent nations is a good way to eliminate the technological edge on which the GA depends. Giving the newly independent shell systems the means for a basic defence(export version LAC's all the way up to CA/BC) anything more elaborate should be reserved for close allies and nations the GA trusts/depends on for whatever reason.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:01 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
The RMN never attempted to protect Silesian systems from pirates. Pirates very seldom attacked systems anyway. Privateers were a different matter, but as long as privateers left SKM shipping alone, the RMN didn't interfere.
Just their mere presence would be protection enough when they are around that is...

Sigs wrote:at the point in time when they couldn't sustain the anti-piracy patrols the piracy problem ballooned to the point that it might have led to suspension of trade.


The "piracy problem" that led to the Trojans being deployed in HAE, was RHN state sponsored commerce raiding, NOT piracy.
So 100% of the problem was state sponsored? The way I understand it, the problem was much worse then usual and the people's navy made an effort to make it that much worse. There was enough problems without the Heavenites involving themselves in the whole mess.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:00 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Sigs wrote:They spend 200-300 years patrolling 60 systems and trying to protect them and the SKM's commerce from piracy,


The RMN never attempted to protect Silesian systems from pirates. Pirates very seldom attacked systems anyway. Privateers were a different matter, but as long as privateers left SKM shipping alone, the RMN didn't interfere.

Sigs wrote:at the point in time when they couldn't sustain the anti-piracy patrols the piracy problem ballooned to the point that it might have led to suspension of trade.


The "piracy problem" that led to the Trojans being deployed in HAE, was RHN state sponsored commerce raiding, NOT piracy.


Not quite. Haven's involvement was discovered after the Trojans were deployed.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:30 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:The "piracy problem" that led to the Trojans being deployed in HAE, was RHN state sponsored commerce raiding, NOT piracy.


Not quite. Haven's involvement was discovered after the Trojans were deployed.

Don

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Just because it hadn't been discovered doesn't mean it didn't exist. :roll:
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:54 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Just because it hadn't been discovered doesn't mean it didn't exist. :roll:

And just because they were there doesn't mean that they represented 100% of the increase in piracy :roll:.


When you spend 200 years doing the bare minimum as soon as you strip that bare minimum you were investing in anti-piracy the problem grew dramatically. Once the People's Navy was thrown in the mix it made it that much worse.
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