Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: saulsimon and 12 guests

UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat May 05, 2018 3:41 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

GregD wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.


This is the part that I just don't get. Were i setting up the colonization of Mesa, the "genies" would have been the 1st class citizens, and the non-modified people would have been the 2nd class ones.

Why did he have it the other way around?


I never bothered to parse it out before, but I never saw it that way.

It was my impression that everyone got the "Mesa Mods", but that only the Detweiler's consortium members were full citizens. In that way, they resembled Manticore's "First Shareholders". The other folks they recruited to get the numbers up and to fill the labor pool weren't necessarily a part of the Detweiler's argument with the medical establishment, just common labor and technologists.

Still, they needed more numbers for a viable colony. The "indentured servants" would have been those that couldn't afford to buy a direct stake in the company; sort of like the subsidized colonists who went to Manticore, but couldn't pay their own passage. For the Mesans, they went there under the promise of future full participation in society. A broken promise, where the Manties kept theirs.

I thought all that was a deliberate contrast the author expected us to notice; and part of why Manticore aligns so readily with Beowulf against Mesa.

YMMV, of course.

Rob
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by pappilon   » Sat May 05, 2018 4:00 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I never bothered to parse it out before, but I never saw it that way.

It was my impression that everyone got the "Mesa Mods", but that only the Detweiler's consortium members were full citizens. In that way, they resembled Manticore's "First Shareholders". The other folks they recruited to get the numbers up and to fill the labor pool weren't necessarily a part of the Detweiler's argument with the medical establishment, just common labor and technologists.

Still, they needed more numbers for a viable colony. The "indentured servants" would have been those that couldn't afford to buy a direct stake in the company; sort of like the subsidized colonists who went to Manticore, but couldn't pay their own passage. For the Mesans, they went there under the promise of future full participation in society. A broken promise, where the Manties kept theirs.

I thought all that was a deliberate contrast the author expected us to notice; and part of why Manticore aligns so readily with Beowulf against Mesa.

YMMV, of course.

Rob


Was My impression that mods were irrelevant. A bunch of scientists got highly ... put out over a government ban on their precious research. They did like countless others before them. They picked up their marbles and departed for greener pastures, their families in tow. Far more in fact, than the government expected IIRC. Which should have been a wake up call for Beowulf's government.

I'm not sure which if any scientists were Genies. They were escaping what to their minds was an oppressive government policy. All the rest was just a snowball.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat May 05, 2018 4:27 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4320
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

pappilon wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:It was my impression that everyone got the "Mesa Mods", but that only the Detweiler's consortium members were full citizens. ...


Was My impression that mods were irrelevant. A bunch of scientists got highly ... put out over a government ban on their precious research. They did like countless others before them. They picked up their marbles and departed for greener pastures, their families in tow. Far more in fact, than the government expected IIRC. Which should have been a wake up call for Beowulf's government.

I'm not sure which if any scientists were Genies. ...


I suspect that not all of Detweiler's followers were Genies when they decided to "pick up their marbles" but everyone who settled on Mesa was, or soon became one.

ETA:

I also suspect that the origins of alpha, Beta, Gamma, and lesser genetic lines were established -- probably serupticiously -- at the same time as the publically acknowledged "Mesa Mods" were done.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat May 05, 2018 4:52 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
I suspect that not all of Detweiler's followers were Genies when they decided to "pick up their marbles" but everyone who settled on Mesa was, or soon became one.

ETA:

I also suspect that the origins of alpha, Beta, Gamma, and lesser genetic lines were established -- probably serupticiously -- at the same time as the publically acknowledged "Mesa Mods" were done.


By his time, nearly everyone everywhere was already a genie, to some extent. But some of the mods--to prevent genetic predispositions to diseases--were likely pretty old and forgotten about.

I think RFC made it clear that it was the later generations that made those distinctions after the original Leonard was long gone? Leonard the 3d was the one who faked his own assassination, wasn't he?

The Mesa Mods by themselves probably didn't violate the Beowulf Code at all, as Mesa was a pretty fair planet. Of course, at the time, the Cherwell Convention hadn't been made law. . . so the Detweilers didn't have that grievance quite yet.
Regards,

Rob
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat May 05, 2018 6:11 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4320
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think RFC made it clear that it was the later generations that made those distinctions after the original Leonard was long gone? Leonard the 3d was the one who faked his own assassination, wasn't he?


I don't mean that the whole genetic caste system was fully formed, just that some "more important" families got more mods than the general populace as a start on Leonard the first's "genetic uplift" program. A bit more longevity in this family; a bit more intelligence in that one; a knack for strategy and tactics in this other family; etc.

Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat May 05, 2018 6:29 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

Weird Harold wrote:I don't mean that the whole genetic caste system was fully formed, just that some "more important" families got more mods than the general populace as a start on Leonard the first's "genetic uplift" program. A bit more longevity in this family; a bit more intelligence in that one; a knack for strategy and tactics in this other family; etc.

Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.


Chairman, board of directors, anyone holding more than 5% of consortium stock . . . . :)

Works for me, Harold.

After all, the Winton mod and the Meyerdahl B both had some sort of intelligence booster, and both were done at least 500 years before Detweiler & Co. left for Mesa. Who knows what Lenny was starting from? But the comment Allison made about the unintended effects of some of the intelligence mods--excessive aggression, paranoia, etc. strike me as coming home to roost in the Malign.

Regards,

Rob
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Slneezy   » Sat May 05, 2018 9:55 am

Slneezy
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
After all, the Winton mod and the Meyerdahl B both had some sort of intelligence booster, and both were done at least 500 years before Detweiler & Co. left for Mesa. Who knows what Lenny was starting from? But the comment Allison made about the unintended effects of some of the intelligence mods--excessive aggression, paranoia, etc. strike me as coming home to roost in the Malign.

Regards,

Rob


It isn't paranoia if they're out to get you... and if you're running a century spanning conspiracy intended on forcibly remodeling the human race then they're certainly out to get you.

MAlign's bunker mentality and paranoia are more likely to be institutional than anything else.
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sat May 05, 2018 12:01 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:I don't mean that the whole genetic caste system was fully formed, just that some "more important" families got more mods than the general populace as a start on Leonard the first's "genetic uplift" program. A bit more longevity in this family; a bit more intelligence in that one; a knack for strategy and tactics in this other family; etc.

Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.


Chairman, board of directors, anyone holding more than 5% of consortium stock . . . . :)

Works for me, Harold.

After all, the Winton mod and the Meyerdahl B both had some sort of intelligence booster, and both were done at least 500 years before Detweiler & Co. left for Mesa. Who knows what Lenny was starting from? But the comment Allison made about the unintended effects of some of the intelligence mods--excessive aggression, paranoia, etc. strike me as coming home to roost in the Malign.

Regards,

Rob


And of course, our very own Honor has the intelligence mod.

I find it interesting that the side effects of the intelligence mods are still a point of contention. Indicating that the MA itself hasn't been successful at correcting that unfortunate side effect. Yet, I seem to be at a disadvantage trying to share my notion that they probably aren't as successful, as they'd like to be, at correcting the psychopathy and such, either. The MAlign aren't gods, just geneticists.

The closest one can come to playing God, is simply playing god. How is man to know, that if humanity's intelligence quotient is given a boost, that he should also be given the same compensating, complementing boost in other areas of perhaps, emotion, civility, etc., etc. Compensations and complements that one normally acquires in-step with developing intelligence. Can't always bypass the stork and simply deliver the baby w/o ramifications. Unseen ramifications. Unseen ramifications is at the root of the original paranoia about Genies and the Final Wars.

Within the human body is balance between mind, body, spirit and soul. You can't simply upset the balance and not expect problems.

Too much brains and not enough matter makes you dangerous.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sun May 06, 2018 10:37 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Sometimes you simply have to break it down and put it into words.

Leonard's vision was bastardized, just like John Harington's quote.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun May 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

Weird Harold wrote:SNIP
Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.


SNIP--took out my own comment ;)
Also, there wasn't a Beowulf code until after the Final War; the Soon-to-be-Sollies may have banned a lot of existing procedures in their pursuit of "normal" and "unmodified".

cthia wrote:And of course, our very own Honor has the intelligence mod.

I find it interesting that the side effects of the intelligence mods are still a point of contention. Indicating that the MA itself hasn't been successful at correcting that unfortunate side effect. Yet, I seem to be at a disadvantage trying to share my notion that they probably aren't as successful, as they'd like to be, at correcting the psychopathy and such, either.


Dunno why you'd have any trouble getting the thought across, it's a theme represented all along by Bardesano, and in another way, Francesca.

cthia wrote:Within the human body is balance between mind, body, spirit and soul. You can't simply upset the balance and not expect problems.

Too much brains and not enough matter makes you dangerous.


The Malign motto.

Regards,

Rob
Top

Return to Honorverse