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UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:43 pm

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People, I have deliberately structured this problem so that neither side is completely right nor completely wrong, at least in its first principles.

Beowulf confronted and dealt with an unimaginable nightmare on Old Earth after the Final War, and it was unimaginable for more reasons than simply the horror of the weapons — and the genetic engineering — which had been unleashed. It was unimaginable because this was the birthplace of mankind. Old Earth had — and in many ways, despite the Solarian League's hubris and arrogance, retains, even in Honor's time — a unique reverence in the eyes of the human-explored galaxy. It's where they all came from, the one genuine touchstone every single human being has in common.

And Old Earth damned near didn't make it, even with Beowulf and all of the other colonized star systems which could get there rallying to its assistance. The Final War was that close to a genuine extinction event.

In the wake of the Final War, the Beowulf Code was promulgated for Beowulf; it was later adopted by the League as a whole, but initially, it governed only Beowulf's life sciences. And the primary purpose of the Beowulf Code (as originally promulgated) was to prevent any future weaponization of genetic engineering. It was not to outlaw all genetic modification. It was not to foreclose the individual choices of individuals for individuals. It did specifically outlaw the weaponization of nanotech and what we might think of as biological agents, whether organic or inorganic. In so far as modification of the human genotype was concerned, its sole original intent was to prevent the conscious design of classes of individuals who could/would be the next Scrags on steroids and regard themselves as genetically — i.e., racially — superior to the rest of the human race, thus justifying their place as the predators at the apex of the food chain.

This quickly came to be interpreted as tight restrictions on genetic modification intended to create deliberately "improved" (interpreted as "superior") human beings, even on the individual level. And it was accompanied by the beginnings of a general prejudice against all "genies" because, after all, the "super soldiers" who'd done their best to destroy the unmodified human race (and the entire planet of old Earth) had been "genies," hadn't they? Therefore, all genies were suspect, particularly if there genetic mods did make them demonstrably superior to "base model" humans in some way. (For example, the greater strength and quicker reflexes of the Meyerdahl mods.)

Leonard Detweiler was part of the teams that saved Old Earth. He had no problem at all with restrictions that prevented the future weaponization of biotech in general or genetics in specific. But he saw the "all genies are evil" mindset beginning to set in, and he opposed it. As he saw it, the more repressive interpretations of the Beowulf Code coming into play were akin to people who would have said "Because atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all future nuclear research must be prohibited for all time," thus precluding nuclear energy, nuclear medicine, etc., etc. That was what he railed against, and I would submit that he was right to do so even while Beowulf was right to be concerned about the consequences of the Final War.

The debate between Detweiler and the medical establishment of Beowulf began as a debate between Detweiler and the more radical elements of the medical establishment of Beowulf who most strongly opposed "genetic tampering" after the Final War. As the full awareness of how hideous the Final War had been sank into the general public, the person-in-the-street tended to support those radical elements, which was one of the big reasons why the tide of anti-genie prejudice gathered so much strength in a relatively short stretch of time. And as the person-in-the-street got more extreme in anti-improvement terms, so did the "mainstream" medical establishment. What I'm saying here is that the initial starting positions of Detweiler and someone like George Benson were not that far apart, but the wedge between them was driven deeper and deeper by intolerance and fear, on one side, and bitter resentment of the towering wave of uninformed intolerance and fear, on the other side. Positions became steadily more extreme and the rhetoric grew increasingly heated.

By Honor Harrington's time, the prejudice against genies in general is very much a thing of the past for the vast majority of the human race. There are still some segments of it which continue to think even the Meyerdahl mods were a terrible idea, but they are very few and far between. There is a much more general prejudice against genetic slaves, which is deeply irrational (as, indeed, most bigotry is) and tends to focus more on feelings of superiority on the part of the person who, after all, wasn't designed as property and therefore must be inferior. Anti-genie prejudice as fear of the genetically modified is only a minor strand of public opinion in Honor's day.

For many people, that changes the instant that "genetic modification" becomes defined as "genetic enhancement" — i.e., the creation of a superior human rather than simply one modified to fit a particular environment (a.k.a. the Meyerdahl mods, for example). By and large, however, it's not a big thing.

At the time that Leonard decamped to Mesa, however, it had become a very big thing, and as far as he was concerned the "hysterical fear" of the responsible modification of the human genotype was on the wrong side of history. The debate had turned into a battle to submission from both sides as the positions became ever more extreme, and so when Mesa became available, Detweiler opted to withdraw from Beowulf to a fresh start in an entirely different star system. In effect, he had been driven from the public debate in Beowulf which had left possession of the Beowulf Code to the "fundamentalists" who demanded extremely tight restrictions on genetic modification and who anathematized the concept of intentional genetic uplift.

Leonard's own views had become more extreme over the years of fighting his losing battle against strident voices which wanted only to silence him and those who shared his viewpoint and drive them out of the debate. (I would point out that I created the conceptual basis for Detweiler and the origin of the Mesan Alignment twenty-odd years ago, before the tendency for people to silence opponents and damn the First Amendment had become as prevalent as it is today, but there are definite resonances here.) He'd also become an extremely bitter man, where all things Beowulfan — and especially where the evolving Beowulf Code — was concerned. He never lost his own sense of medical ethics, however. He genuinely had no intention of supplanting humanity with a new, superior species (or at least subspecies. He envisioned a eugenics program designed to uplift all members of a population with the effects of each beneficial modification being spread through the population as a whole through the natural process of reproduction.

The strident (I would argue in many ways the perverted) version of the Beowulf Code which governed at the time that he left for Mesa shouted down even that concept, however. And so, since he and his had been declared "outlaws" anyway, he embraced the outlaw label by designing workers, colonists, and "indentured servants." As I've said elsewhere, one of his main goals in doing this — indeed, the primary goal in doing it — was a continuation of his research and the very quiet, in formal beginning of the GMA later discovered by Mike Henke. He and his fellow Mesans would look to the gradual genetic improvement of the human race, but they would do it in a way which kept the modifications they were making below the radar horizon of the rest of the human race and its blinkered prejudice.

Leonard died before the institution of genetic slavery spread across the galaxy. Manpower Inc. was created by elements of the genuine lunatic fringe which had attached itself to his party. I believe I've spoken about them in a previous post. These were the people who were the neo-Nazis or the Islamic fundamentalists or the anti-fa fanatics who saw in him the closest thing to a "respectable" spokesperson they could find. They didn't think he went anywhere near far enough; he just went farther than any other public figure with a chance to be heard. It wasn't a difficult step for those people to support the design and sale of genetic slaves, and once they had taken that first step they were on a very, very slippery slope into a pit of moral depravity.

The emergence of genetic slavery, and the defiance of interests on Mesa who supported it, continued and intensified the shifting focus of hostility. Genetic slavery "proved" to current Beowulfers that their ancestors had obviously been right to exile Detweiler and the people so corrupt they'd created genetic slavery. Beowulfan contempt for Mesa — and ongoing, almost knee-jerk condemnation of Detweiler and all things associated with him — fueled the growth of the Onion with in the quiet, more benign campaign of genetic uplift Leonard had been associated with. And along the way, Leonard's descendants — or some of them, at any rate — fully embraced the extremists and joined the Onion, where, of course, their family pedigree quickly led them to leadership roles.

Meanwhile, the Beowulf Code ossified for a century or so. Then, gradually, it began to relax. The memory of the Final War receded and gained historical perspective. It penetrated the psyche that there were millions upon millions of "genetically enhanced" human beings (like the entire population of star systems like Meyerdahl) who weren't running around eating the rest of humanity. And as a result, some of the accretions of prejudice and fear got sandblasted off the Beowulf Code. In fact, the geneticists on Beowulf currently have a rather more liberal interpretation of the Beowulf Code than the Solarian League's legal system, which was written on the basis of the ossified version of it.

What this means is that the vast majority of Beowulfers would be perfectly fine with the GMA's objectives. The GMA could have come out of the shadows 150 or 200 years ago, as far as Beowulf was concerned, but not as far as the Solarian League's law codes and a sizable chunk of non-Beowulfan public opinion was concerned. By that time, however, the Onion was already launched on the trajectory of the "Detweiler Plan." And, by that time, the Onion had moved light-years beyond anything Leonard Detweiler could possibly have sanctioned. There's a reason the Onion keeps talking about alpha-lines and beta-lines and gamma-lines, which Leonard would never have done. In effect, the Onion truly is trying to create the one thing the Beowulf Code is specifically designed to prevent: the creation of a recognized social hierarchy based upon genotype.

It's a messy, messy situation, which was specifically intended to be a messy, messy situation, and it really is time that Beowulf did a little soul-searching, at least in historical terms, if it truly wants to understand what's happened here. There's a reason I have Honor reflect that the two things human beings make are tools and mistakes, because although she doesn't realize the irony at the moment that she thinks that, that's precisely what's happened here.

Nobody has ever managed to repeal the law of unintended consequences, and the fact that they can't is really the point I've been trying to make, in a lot of ways.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:20 pm

cthia
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Thanks again for an incredible post worthy of its own binding, oh great Weber of Wizardry!!!

As a result, it's far time I post this as an aside. I've been meaning to...

HTTRACK will allow one so inclined to mirror an entire website for viewing offline. If you have the available memory, you can save the entire forums for later perusal at some point in the future when the site may become a mythical beast. The software is free and works flawlessly. It's the next best thing to RFC actually publishing everything.

Now, to tackle the next item up for bid...

RFC wrote:People, I have deliberately structured this problem so that neither side is completely right nor completely wrong, at least in its first principles.


What you mean is that you attempted to cast that spell, O Great Weber of Wizardry.

"That darn cthia!" :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:22 pm

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Thank you, David. The confirms my belief in the GMA and the (back in the day)nascent MAlign's moral rectitude.

That belief suggests that Mesa may well become a GA member against the Onion/MAlign. The GMA would ba as apalled with the Onion as Leonard Detweiler would have been.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Joat42   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:29 pm

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cthia wrote:..snip..
Many of us don't want a nuclear power plant in our own state or even a few states over, even now.

I do hope you don't live near any coal power plants then, because they actually emit radioactive isotopes continually. It's even worse if you live near a coal processing plant - they collectively in the US emit many hundreds of tons of uranium every year.

I'm not saying that nuclear power doesn't has it's problems, but there are other things that are worse that are swept under the rug.

To get back to the question of genetically bettering humanity, if it is done carefully and implemented for everyone it's unlikely you will get the problem with an "upper class" of citizens who believe they are better.

I understand why Beowulf overreacted because I know people in general are illogical creatures who don't take the time to think things through just because something bad happened and they feel the need to fix it NOW! Which only makes me understand Leonard Detweilers frustration better, because I too hate idiotic emotional knee jerk reactions from people.

And the thing about this worlds nuclear power and the final war super-soldiers in Honorverse is that their existence is due to the same exact cause. Power, preferably military.

The basis for most of the types of nuclear plants in use are twofold:
  1. Produce energy
  2. Produce isotopes than can be used in atomic weapons

The point is that unless we as humanity have the mental fortitude to stop the corruption of benign technologies for amassing power; whether it is military or political, we will see them used against people, again and again.

Technology in itself isn't evil, just how some sometimes use it.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:36 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Thank you, David. The confirms my belief in the GMA and the (back in the day)nascent MAlign's moral rectitude.

That belief suggests that Mesa may well become a GA member against the Onion/MAlign. The GMA would ba as apalled with the Onion as Leonard Detweiler would have been.


This settles the whole idea about how sociopathic the Dets really are...or does it?

Leonard was clearly not, based on RFC's material. And we know that a decent percentage of people in the Onion do not like Manpower and slavery.

The current Dets see it as basically a diversion from their activities.

As noted before, a real lot of what they want could be done normally and simply. But they are fringers and want to push.

These things are always tricky. Right now, on our world we have arguments going on about which side of a group of science questions represent real science. I had a woman tell me clearly how dangerous GMO foods are and one of her key proofs came from a daily horoscope!
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Slneezy   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:51 pm

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cthia wrote:
At any rate therein, alone, lies a catch 22. I don't think the Malign are proceeding cautiously. Even if caution is enough. Especially not when the wastebasket is full of failed attempts. They are unregulated. Unmitigated. Uncaring and unfeeling, so vehemently saith Simoes. At least this is the MO of the present malignants. How can one think the Malign have the whole of mankind's best interest in mind when they hardly care for the whole of their own?

One of my Romanian friends asked an interesting question. "Who among us who are sympathizers with the Malign would actually be sympathizers if the fear of the Final Wars was actually a part of your psyche and experience and happened in your own back hard as did Hitler? I don't hear anyone sympathizing with Hitler. He had the same lofty goal of the betterment of mankind. The difference is, it was in our own solar system and the horrors was real for us, the fears were real for us.

Take a moment. Close your eyes and try to imagine the real fear in the Honorverse during the Final Wars. Afraid to accept ships in your system because they may carry a plague much worse than Ebola. Afraid of your own shadow, because mankind may be lost in a shadow of itself.

P.S.

If Beowulf is not fit to suggest limits and caution to the research, then who is? The Malign? Would you really want the Malign to be self-regulating even if they had it within them to regulate, in your neck of the woods? An entity who absolutely has no governors emplaced at all? Then who would be my keeper, when I cannot keep myself?

At All Costs is their motto.

.


A most insightful reply.

Clearly MAlign has moved beyond what Detweiler originally intended into an almost unrecognisable parody. That's speaks more about the dangers of extremism than the unsuitability of genetic engineering (it is darkly ironic that MAlign fell to the same old problems despite the lofty goal it assumed).

As for who would regulate it... well that's a tricky one. Certainly Beowulf should have some sort of influence on the process as should Earth... otherwise it is really hard to say.

PeterZ wrote:I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.



And supremely ineffective to boot.

To take some in universe examples: the sneering superiority of the Youngs and other aristocrats, the way the Legislaturalists viewed the so called Dolists as a faceless mass of drones, the condescension mixed with pity at the neo-barbs that is the prerogative of a true Leaguer - all have nothing to do with genetics.

Bigotry is all about feeling superior. Not having a real scientific basis for bigotry has only fueled pseudo-science that existed only to provide justifications IRL; it is doubtful that adding some actual genetics in the mix would change the social angle in any degree.


runsforcelery wrote:People, I have deliberately structured this problem so that neither side is completely right nor completely wrong, at least in its first principles.

...

Leonard's own views had become more extreme over the years of fighting his losing battle against strident voices which wanted only to silence him and those who shared his viewpoint and drive them out of the debate. (I would point out that I created the conceptual basis for Detweiler and the origin of the Mesan Alignment twenty-odd years ago, before the tendency for people to silence opponents and damn the First Amendment had become as prevalent as it is today, but there are definite resonances here.) He'd also become an extremely bitter man, where all things Beowulfan — and especially where the evolving Beowulf Code — was concerned. He never lost his own sense of medical ethics, however. He genuinely had no intention of supplanting humanity with a new, superior species (or at least subspecies. He envisioned a eugenics program designed to uplift all members of a population with the effects of each beneficial modification being spread through the population as a whole through the natural process of reproduction.



Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. It is great to get info from the horse's mouth as it were.

And now I feel even more sorry for Leonard - if spinning in the grave weren't just a metaphor I'd imagine his corpse would have drilled a whole through a planet by now.


A question though: why did Detweiler view uplift via reproduction as being more viable/desirable than uplift via gene therapy or cybernetics?

Like besides mentions of Sharpton cybernetics don't seem to be all that popular - despite them being good enough to enhance performance (like the stuff Honor got).
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by kzt   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:15 pm

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Joat42 wrote:I do hope you don't live near any coal power plants then, because they actually emit radioactive isotopes continually. It's even worse if you live near a coal processing plant - they collectively in the US emit many hundreds of tons of uranium every year.

What's the half-life of coal tar carcinogenicity? Infinite, it's toxic forever. You can dilute it to where the typical dose isn't toxic and if released to the environment microbes and the environment will break it down.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:19 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Thank you, David. The confirms my belief in the GMA and the (back in the day)nascent MAlign's moral rectitude.

That belief suggests that Mesa may well become a GA member against the Onion/MAlign. The GMA would ba as apalled with the Onion as Leonard Detweiler would have been.


This settles the whole idea about how sociopathic the Dets really are...or does it?

Leonard was clearly not, based on RFC's material. And we know that a decent percentage of people in the Onion do not like Manpower and slavery.

The current Dets see it as basically a diversion from their activities.

As noted before, a real lot of what they want could be done normally and simply. But they are fringers and want to push.

These things are always tricky. Right now, on our world we have arguments going on about which side of a group of science questions represent real science. I had a woman tell me clearly how dangerous GMO foods are and one of her key proofs came from a daily horoscope!


I find that David's post settles the validity of the argument(not the logical validity, but practical validity in this forum). That validity makes the GA a more receptive home for the GMA and likely most of Mesa for many other reasons than the SL or whatever follows it.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:20 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:So long as there are difference in people, there will be a temptation toward prejudice and bigotry. Is the answer to eliminate all differences? That appears to be the extreme conclusion of Beowulf's position against genetic uplift. That position appears to hold that so long as ubermensch are around, they will seek to dominate the untermensch. The ONLY solution then is to eliminate all possibility of ubermensch.

I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.

The GMA appear to want uplift and that the genetic changes will eventually supplant non-uplifted genotypes. That goal may never be achieved, but that doesn't mean it is not a worthy goal. Certainly, no one group can stipulate that it should never be attempted.
Pardon my hold to call attention.

I can be coaxed to board this bus except for the highlighted.

We all have a say in playing with fire that can burn us all, and not just your neck of the woods -- the small little parcel of the universe that houses the Dariusian resort.
PeterZ wrote:[1] If local experiments have no impact on the braoder neighborhood, then the rest of neighborhood can well stay the heck out of local affairs. [2] Until things begin to impact the broader galaxy, they cannot morally coerce complience to their dictates.

The SL did just that with their Protectorate system. They compelled all other star nations to participate in their galactic order. Beowulf hasn't compelled anyone to follow their policy. They have turned non-compliance into the vilest of pejoratives. The difference exists, but neither compulsion nor extreme stigamtization engender dialogue that leads anywhere useful.
Do pardon my numbering scheme that assists my laziness.

1) Hasn't that ship already sailed? What happened on Old Earth with the research and the Final Wars has already impacted the entire galaxy.

-It created a Code to deal with the fallout.

-It created a card carrying meat-cleaver against that code.

-It created a racial divide of subjugates created by the "ethics" of a meat cleaver. Subjugates who arguably have no identity.

-A slew of card carrying dissidents spurned by the meat cleaver.

-Racism and prejudices from causes and effects of that racial divide caused by the meat cleaver.

-And just maybe many more unseen perturbations in the puddle dropped by a huge pill in the ocean of mankind.

2) Well, no they can't. Because they are not yet privy to the arrogance and stupidity. But it wouldn't remain that way. If the Malign manages to shoot themselves in the proverbial foot, the pain won't necessarily remain in their extremity, it may come home to mother Earth and the rest of the galaxy to roost, where then it may be much too late to close Pandora's box. That would not be the ideal time, or the ideal way, to find out about it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm

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cthia wrote:
1) Hasn't that ship already sailed? What happened on Old Earth with the research and the Final Wars has already impacted the entire galaxy.

-It created a Code to deal with the fallout.

-It created a card carrying meat-cleaver against that code.

-It created a racial divide of subjugates created by the "ethics" of a meat cleaver. Subjugates who arguably have no identity.

-A slew of card carrying dissidents spurned by the meat cleaver.

-Racism and prejudices from causes and effects of that racial divide caused by the meat cleaver.

-And just maybe many more unseen perturbations in the puddle dropped by a huge pill in the ocean of mankind.

2) Well, no they can't. Because they are not yet privy to the arrogance and stupidity. But it wouldn't remain that way. If the Malign manages to shoot themselves in the proverbial foot, the pain won't necessarily remain in their extremity, it may come home to mother Earth and the rest of the galaxy to roost, where then it may be much too late to close Pandora's box. That would not be the ideal time, or the ideal way, to find out about it.

You are arguing that the results of Final War justify whatever measures were taken to address those results. Nonsense. As David states, the code was interpreted more extremely than the originators envisioned. That means the code by definition has been degraded from its original intent. Regardless of the rationalization of those that hijacked the original Code, the current interpretation is closer to the original intent than the actual interpretation by SL legal thinkers and the Solly person in the street.

All this is to say, the Code as currently interpreted, is ripe for a comprehensive review. The results of which will likely approximate the current GMA and GA thought.
Last edited by PeterZ on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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