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UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:44 pm

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All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by n7axw   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:34 pm

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PeterZ wrote:All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.


Nice post, Peter. You've put into words some things I've been thinking.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by pappilon   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:26 pm

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n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.


Nice post, Peter. You've put into words some things I've been thinking.

Don

-

I second that and only add the adoption after the assassination attempt (Justin?)
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:25 pm

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PeterZ wrote:All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.


Sweet Johnny 5! Input! Johnny 5 needs input! I like it. I said long ago I needed help with this thing!

Though I might suggest that the emotion has to be the right flavor, i.e., contain the right ingredients, plural. Simply mental acuity alone, shouldn't be enough, as the right mods, alone, not enough. Or Sonja, whose mental acuity and mind has to be as sharp as they come, would have the cats fighting over her. Remember, cats are alike two-legs in many ways as they are different, being sentient beings. I wouldn't cotton to the notion that one single detail would endear them to someone so deeply that they would die for them, no more than it would us. I would bet on the cats being much more complicated than that. Neither beauty, mental acuity, gorgeous eyes, legs... neither of the above, alone, would be enough for two-legs to choose a mate, to marry someone, to bond for life. Well, most of us. Though beauty and/or sexiness alone, might seal the deal for some of us. But I doubt treecats are led by their lower extremity. LOL But, you get the gist.

Something else fuels my thoughts. It seems to take time for it to happen. Sometimes, several meetings. The interview with Harahap went on for awhile before the fireworks. Though it happened after Clean Killer focused upon the subject. It seems to me that a treecat's radar has to be facing the right "direction," tuned. As much as we wouldn't notice a naked woman if we're preoccupied. Yes, it happened to me. Long story.

Pavel Young's emotions in the vicinity of Honor whistled like a train, I'm telling you. And I would imagine he had a mental acuity of his own, simply along a one track mind. Young was highly focused in one endeavor. Get that baseborn bitch! Just as savants have the sharpest minds of all, just along a one track mind.

I would imagine it also includes the "heart and soul" behind the emotion. The purity of it. The impetus behind it if you will. Maccabeus' emotions had to spike something fierce before attacking and they were focused in their tasks with a sharpness of the mind, since their life depended on it. I would imagine that an intense emotional state might raise the "frequency" of a two-legs broadcasts high enough for a cat to process, to get a good read to parse for bonding. Like what happens when a human is connected to a lie detector and the right question triggers a reading. Treecats are lie detectors, and the questioning of Harahap may have struck a nerve and opened him up.

See the wheel of emotions broached in the Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young thread.

Treecats are so darn interesting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:37 pm

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cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.


Sweet Johnny 5! Input! Johnny 5 needs input! I like it. I said long ago I needed help with this thing!

Though I might suggest that the emotion has to be the right flavor, i.e., contain the right ingredients, plural. Simply mental acuity alone, shouldn't be enough, as the right mods, alone, not enough. Or Sonja, whose mental acuity and mind has to be as sharp as they come, would have the cats fighting over her. Remember, cats are alike two-legs in many ways as they are different, being sentient beings. I wouldn't cotton to the notion that one single detail would endear them to someone so deeply that they would die for them, no more than it would us. I would bet on the cats being much more complicated than that. Neither beauty, mental acuity, gorgeous eyes, legs... neither of the above, alone, would be enough for two-legs to choose a mate, to marry someone, to bond for life. Well, most of us. Though beauty and/or sexiness alone, might seal the deal for some of us. But I doubt treecats are led by their lower extremity. LOL But, you get the gist.

Something else fuels my thoughts. It seems to take time for it to happen. Sometimes, several meetings. The interview with Harahap went on for awhile before the fireworks. Though it happened after Clean Killer focused upon the subject. It seems to me that a treecat's radar has to be facing the right "direction," tuned. As much as we wouldn't notice a naked woman if we're preoccupied. Yes, it happened to me. Long story.

Pavel Young's emotions in the vicinity of Honor whistled like a train, I'm telling you. And I would imagine he had a mental acuity of his own, simply along a one track mind. Young was highly focused in one endeavor. Get that baseborn bitch! Just as savants have the sharpest minds of all, just along a one track mind.

I would imagine it also includes the "heart and soul" behind the emotion. The purity of it. The impetus behind it if you will. Maccabeus' emotions had to spike something fierce before attacking and they were focused in their tasks with a sharpness of the mind, since their life depended on it. I would imagine that an intense emotional state might raise the "frequency" of a two-legs broadcasts high enough for a cat to process, to get a good read to parse for bonding. Like what happens when a human is connected to a lie detector and the right question triggers a reading. Treecats are lie detectors, and the questioning of Harahap may have struck a nerve and opened him up.

See the wheel of emotions broached in the Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young thread.

Treecats are so darn interesting.

I would describe it as more a resonance than appreciating the frequency after some onbservation. This is a two way link, after all. Clean Killer saw the mind glow during the interview. Resonance wasn't established until some time has passed. Once resonance was made, the mind glows/emotions meld into an experience humans describe as unconditional love and treecats describe as an incredibly bright mind glow.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:29 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:All the bonds we have seen, including the bond between Allyson and Alfred have been a linking of emotions. We have seen Nimitz's return to his clan after bonding Sam. His mind glow was greatly intensified.

That suggests to me that 'cats are attracted to people who feel deeply, whose emotions are intense. That can come about because someone understand the world around them well enough to really be moved by what happens in the world. It could be because someone just has an affinity for emotional connections. My suspicion is that the combination of mental acuity that leads to an ability to feel strongly, passionately and honestly is what treecats find tasty.

The Youngs are not nearly honest enough to make them even interesting to a treecat. Combined with their self centered view of life and a 'cat would see a rather stunted mind glow.

Using this measure of tastiness, Damien would be very attractive. His internal monologues have shown him to be very in touch with his emotions. He simply doesn't let people see them. He understand the world he lives in very well and approaches that understanding honestly. He is forced to things he doesn't like, yet at all times he uses his job to express his deep seated desires. He works for the status quo but names himself for the tool that would burn down that status quo. He works for a repressive regime, but longs to burn down all the things that repress people.

How deeply must his self control run to be so professional doing something he feels such an antipathy for? That self control is an emotion of a sort, heh? Sort of like the self control of Honor binding the Salamander to the bonds duty and personal connection.


Sweet Johnny 5! Input! Johnny 5 needs input! I like it. I said long ago I needed help with this thing!

Though I might suggest that the emotion has to be the right flavor, i.e., contain the right ingredients, plural. Simply mental acuity alone, shouldn't be enough, as the right mods, alone, not enough. Or Sonja, whose mental acuity and mind has to be as sharp as they come, would have the cats fighting over her. Remember, cats are alike two-legs in many ways as they are different, being sentient beings. I wouldn't cotton to the notion that one single detail would endear them to someone so deeply that they would die for them, no more than it would us. I would bet on the cats being much more complicated than that. Neither beauty, mental acuity, gorgeous eyes, legs... neither of the above, alone, would be enough for two-legs to choose a mate, to marry someone, to bond for life. Well, most of us. Though beauty and/or sexiness alone, might seal the deal for some of us. But I doubt treecats are led by their lower extremity. LOL But, you get the gist.

Something else fuels my thoughts. It seems to take time for it to happen. Sometimes, several meetings. The interview with Harahap went on for awhile before the fireworks. Though it happened after Clean Killer focused upon the subject. It seems to me that a treecat's radar has to be facing the right "direction," tuned. As much as we wouldn't notice a naked woman if we're preoccupied. Yes, it happened to me. Long story.

Pavel Young's emotions in the vicinity of Honor whistled like a train, I'm telling you. And I would imagine he had a mental acuity of his own, simply along a one track mind. Young was highly focused in one endeavor. Get that baseborn bitch! Just as savants have the sharpest minds of all, just along a one track mind.

I would imagine it also includes the "heart and soul" behind the emotion. The purity of it. The impetus behind it if you will. Maccabeus' emotions had to spike something fierce before attacking and they were focused in their tasks with a sharpness of the mind, since their life depended on it. I would imagine that an intense emotional state might raise the "frequency" of a two-legs broadcasts high enough for a cat to process, to get a good read to parse for bonding. Like what happens when a human is connected to a lie detector and the right question triggers a reading. Treecats are lie detectors, and the questioning of Harahap may have struck a nerve and opened him up.

See the wheel of emotions broached in the Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young thread.

Treecats are so darn interesting.


PeterZ wrote:I would describe it as more a resonance than appreciating the frequency after some onbservation. This is a two way link, after all. Clean Killer saw the mind glow during the interview. Resonance wasn't established until some time has passed. Once resonance was made, the mind glows/emotions meld into an experience humans describe as unconditional love and treecats describe as an incredibly bright mind glow.


Yes, I think you're on to something there. I broached the subject in the same thread. They are concepts that exist in the two-leg species as well. Going on a date and feeling in-tune with her. Everything resonating along the same lines. On the same page. "Soul mates" covers it all, I think. The idea of the cats needing time to tune the human broadcasted frequency is interesting. Nice thought. Or even the notion that the cats need time for two-leg emotions to settle, internally within two-legs. We are a species who oftentimes don't know what the hell it is we're feeling ourselves. Especially a woman. "Ouch!"

I also wonder if the other channel that has been developed by Honor, is temporarily involved in the bonding process. Momentarily.

We oftentimes call it chemistry.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:10 am

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Just as a thought...

While having the Good Alignment as a decoy/screen designed to blacken Manticore's reputation was a tactical master-stroke by the MAlign, I think it went deeper than that.
The MAlign vets its potential recruits and having the GMA around means that if it has someone nowhere near ruthless enough for the MAlign but who is incredibly skilled in a field they find useful, they can arrange to have them recruited into the GMA instead. Since the MAlign was almost certainly controlling the GMA from the top, that would give them total access to everything being researched, meaning that they would not have to duplicate the efforts themselves, allowing them to spend their resources on yet more paths of investigation.
And then Gold Peak showed up and Albrecht initiated Final Flourish?
That would have taken out all of the MAlign moles in the GMA, leaving the GMA to be provably innocent of all wrong-doings, no matter how deeply Manticore and allies delve.

Multiple birds with a single well-aimed stone.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Slneezy   » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:10 am

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cthia wrote:Denver Summervale finding a mate also seems unlikely, IMO. Possible, yes, but he killed two-legs for the fun of it. Treecats aren't so keen on harming two-legs who aren't natural enemies.


Well quite, most treecats aren't likely to bond with Denver - though I could see a particularly bloodthirsty/borderline sociopathic treecat being just fine with Denver's behaviour. The sort of treecat that likes to play a bit too much with prey in the woods to the point where fellow 'cats do a mental frown might very well feel in sync with Denver's solitary and merciless nature.

cthia wrote:Oops, I forgot.

A sociopathic treecat is very interesting, by the very definition of anti|social, in a species who is very social. Seems they wouldn't want other cats in their head. Such a cat might even like Nimitz' handicap. But seeking a mate to be social with when you're anti-social? So many questions for a treecat "shrink" to tackle.


Maybe - and this is just wild speculation on my part - that anti-social behaviour or even high functioning sociopathy in a treecat won't make that treecat want total isolation.

Bonding with a human would offer a balance between social stuff and some form of companionship; particularly if said human is also not very social. 'Cats are probably too dependant on their mind voices to want Nimitz's handicap and still be functional.

cthia wrote:

Sigmund Freud would have been in shrink heaven in the company of the Honorverse - what with all of the Detweilers and treecats and pleasure slaves and genies and oh my, to boot. LOL



Lol. :D

I'm really, really curious on what Freud would have said on the Detweilers.

Michael Everett wrote:Just as a thought...

While having the Good Alignment as a decoy/screen designed to blacken Manticore's reputation was a tactical master-stroke by the MAlign, I think it went deeper than that.
The MAlign vets its potential recruits and having the GMA around means that if it has someone nowhere near ruthless enough for the MAlign but who is incredibly skilled in a field they find useful, they can arrange to have them recruited into the GMA instead. Since the MAlign was almost certainly controlling the GMA from the top, that would give them total access to everything being researched, meaning that they would not have to duplicate the efforts themselves, allowing them to spend their resources on yet more paths of investigation.
And then Gold Peak showed up and Albrecht initiated Final Flourish?
That would have taken out all of the MAlign moles in the GMA, leaving the GMA to be provably innocent of all wrong-doings, no matter how deeply Manticore and allies delve.

Multiple birds with a single well-aimed stone.


Hmm... an interesting possibility.

It seems odd in many ways to have the Good MAlignment and Bad MAlignment so sharply separated. They're both fruits from the same tree as it were. My guess is that a lot of GMA members got evacuated before Final Flourish.

Sure some genetic researchers got left behind... and I'm sure there's some hope from the Detweilers that Beowulf and the League will turn to strong genetic research once more (since it would vindicate their positions); it seems doubtful that the BMA's master plan is to vindicate the GMA.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:37 am

cthia
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SLneezy wrote:Well quite, most treecats aren't likely to bond with Denver - though I could see a particularly bloodthirsty/borderline sociopathic treecat being just fine with Denver's behavior. The sort of treecat that likes to play a bit too much with prey in the woods to the point where fellow 'cats do a mental frown might very well feel in sync with Denver's solitary and merciless nature.


Oh, I'd have to agree. Adding a sociopathic treecat to the mix and all bets are off. Simply because I don't have the skills of a Freud to psychoanalyze how that would manifest itself doesn't hamper the possibility. Though I think it would fall under the umbrella of many possibilities that would put the treecat at odds with others, though.

cthia wrote:Oops, I forgot.

A sociopathic treecat is very interesting, by the very definition of anti|social, in a species who is very social. Seems they wouldn't want other cats in their head. Such a cat might even like Nimitz' handicap. But seeking a mate to be social with when you're anti-social? So many questions for a treecat "shrink" to tackle.
SLneezy wrote:Maybe - and this is just wild speculation on my part - that anti-social behavior or even high functioning sociopathy in a treecat won't make that treecat want total isolation.

Bonding with a human would offer a balance between social stuff and some form of companionship; particularly if said human is also not very social. 'Cats are probably too dependent on their mind voices to want Nimitz's handicap and still be functional.


What an interesting thought. I think you've got a psychologist's mind yourself. Sir Sigmund. :D

Seriously, I hadn't considered that. Traipsing around the galaxy away from the clan would be an ideal substitute for becoming a complete recluse. And as you say, especially if the two-leg has the same requirement. Kudos!

cthia wrote:
Sigmund Freud would have been in shrink heaven in the company of the Honorverse - what with all of the Detweilers and treecats and pleasure slaves and genies and oh my, to boot. LOL
SLneezy wrote:Lol.

I'm really, really curious on what Freud would have said on the Detweilers.

You and me both. Talk about a kid in a candy store. Actually, psychologists of our time might have killed each other in disagreement as vehement as any two opposite religions. LOL

At any rate, the Oedipus complex alone, broached in the Detweiler & Sons thread is grist enough for the mill.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Smithcentral   » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:49 pm

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cthia wrote:
SLneezy wrote:Well quite, most treecats aren't likely to bond with Denver - though I could see a particularly bloodthirsty/borderline sociopathic treecat being just fine with Denver's behavior. The sort of treecat that likes to play a bit too much with prey in the woods to the point where fellow 'cats do a mental frown might very well feel in sync with Denver's solitary and merciless nature.


Oh, I'd have to agree. Adding a sociopathic treecat to the mix and all bets are off. Simply because I don't have the skills of a Freud to psychoanalyze how that would manifest itself doesn't hamper the possibility. Though I think it would fall under the umbrella of many possibilities that would put the treecat at odds with others, though.

cthia wrote:Oops, I forgot.

A sociopathic treecat is very interesting, by the very definition of anti|social, in a species who is very social. Seems they wouldn't want other cats in their head. Such a cat might even like Nimitz' handicap. But seeking a mate to be social with when you're anti-social? So many questions for a treecat "shrink" to tackle.
SLneezy wrote:Maybe - and this is just wild speculation on my part - that anti-social behavior or even high functioning sociopathy in a treecat won't make that treecat want total isolation.

Bonding with a human would offer a balance between social stuff and some form of companionship; particularly if said human is also not very social. 'Cats are probably too dependent on their mind voices to want Nimitz's handicap and still be functional.


What an interesting thought. I think you've got a psychologist's mind yourself. Sir Sigmund. :D

Seriously, I hadn't considered that. Traipsing around the galaxy away from the clan would be an ideal substitute for becoming a complete recluse. And as you say, especially if the two-leg has the same requirement. Kudos!

cthia wrote:
Sigmund Freud would have been in shrink heaven in the company of the Honorverse - what with all of the Detweilers and treecats and pleasure slaves and genies and oh my, to boot. LOL
SLneezy wrote:Lol.

I'm really, really curious on what Freud would have said on the Detweilers.

You and me both. Talk about a kid in a candy store. Actually, psychologists of our time might have killed each other in disagreement as vehement as any two opposite religions. LOL

At any rate, the Oedipus complex alone, broached in the Detweiler & Sons thread is grist enough for the mill.


Just a quick thought on Treecats beisociopathic didn’t we see one in the Fire Season. Sorry can’t remember the details and I’m away so I can’t look in my copy of the book.
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