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UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed May 16, 2018 11:18 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

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By this time, the leadership and much of the upper classes of the Alignment are Alpha or other Star Lines.
There is that Board that makes the decisions on what your children will be....doesn't sound like there is much left to chance in the breeding of the Star Lines you are GIVEN children who may be mostly of your DNA ---or not- depending on the decisions.

It is a highly structured cast system right down to the majority of the population of Darius who are Slaves that don't know they are Slaves. They are as trained and molded/conditioned that way as any of the most basic of the Manpower work genetic slaves.

Beside, having mods and being able to do things doesn't always translate to actual progress or action. Brains help- working ones.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9659
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:SNIP
Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.


SNIP--took out my own comment ;)
Also, there wasn't a Beowulf code until after the Final War; the Soon-to-be-Sollies may have banned a lot of existing procedures in their pursuit of "normal" and "unmodified".

cthia wrote:And of course, our very own Honor has the intelligence mod.

I find it interesting that the side effects of the intelligence mods are still a point of contention. Indicating that the MA itself hasn't been successful at correcting that unfortunate side effect. Yet, I seem to be at a disadvantage trying to share my notion that they probably aren't as successful, as they'd like to be, at correcting the psychopathy and such, either.


Dunno why you'd have any trouble getting the thought across, it's a theme represented all along by Bardesano, and in another way, Francesca. *

cthia wrote:Within the human body is balance between mind, body, spirit and soul. You can't simply upset the balance and not expect problems.

Too much brains and not enough matter makes you dangerous.


The Malign motto.

Regards,

Rob
Pardon my bold to call attention.

* Yea? Well, see this thread. I've since attributed the insanity to the wacky weed stolen from the Stilties and smuggled off planet.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun May 20, 2018 5:20 pm

ldwechsler
Commodore

Posts: 910
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

cthia wrote:[
Weird Harold wrote:SNIP
Divergence from the Beowulf Code had to start sometime, and hiding preferential mods in the mass modifications for living on Mesa seems like a likely place.


has the intelligence mod.

I find it interesting that the side effects of the intelligence mods are still a point of contention. Indicating that the MA itself hasn't been successful at correcting that unfortunate side effect. Yet, I seem to be at a disadvantage trying to share my notion that they probably aren't as successful, as they'd like to be, at correcting the psychopathy and such, either.


Dunno why you'd have any trouble getting the thought across, it's a theme represented all along by Bardesano, and in another way, Francesca. *

[
Too much brains and not enough matter makes you dangerous.


Let's get to the real point. Until the Beowulf Code, we ASSUME there was no other code...we don't really know. Chances are there was something. Bureaucrats in some places even write regulations for how we wipe our butts.

After the Code, it did exist. The problem is that science is always changing. A lot of things were done within the code that the originators never dreamed of. Aside from some of the more extreme things we saw from Manpower, where animal genes were added (mostly for cosmetic purposes), we haven't seen much that would be forbidden.

Note: Remember when Roe v. Wade was promulgated 40 some years ago, the science more or less assumed that babies born before the end of the sixth month wouldn't make it. That helped make it simple to put the six month element in (I would also bet it made it nice and simple to divide the gestation period into three equal sections with different instructions on each). Without dealing with moral issues, science now gets a lot of babies through born rather earlier and that is causing some issues.

What would happen over hundreds of years in societies that push scientific and technological growth?

Chances are, MAlign could claim (if people don't know about their ships) to be more or less mainline.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:36 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9659
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

I think we may be overlooking another possibility as a result of this line of thinking. What if, conversely, there are descendants of the Harringtons whose wrong turn somehow ended up as Malignants?

The Lost Descendants of the Harringtons. Several even long thought to be dead.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:14 pm

cthia
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Posts: 9659
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:If those alpha-line characteristics were on the same genes, yes. If not then no. And given that Mesan geneticists are among the best in the galaxy, they could certainly have figured out how to incorporate the best of the Meyerdahl mods without affecting their own alpha-line mods -- at least after a couple of centuries of experimentation.


I would think that the Harrington mods are on this side of the Beowulfan "Do not cross" road. Any further research beyond that point most probably would have been altered by the Malign, including unlocking the mods. Akin to unlocking an electronic device (iPhone) before tampering is possible.
Theemile wrote:Don't forget, the Beowulf code was created POST Earth's Final War. A lot of genetic experimenting was done prior to that point, in the open, and placed into the populace, which would now be considered Verboten.


I've always wondered how much of the raw data from 'the original experiments gone wrong' is available to the populace. Is the raw data in the public data banks? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Yet, who has access to the original data? Surely Albrecht did?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:49 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9659
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

quote="cthia"]
Peregrinator wrote:If those alpha-line characteristics were on the same genes, yes. If not then no. And given that Mesan geneticists are among the best in the galaxy, they could certainly have figured out how to incorporate the best of the Meyerdahl mods without affecting their own alpha-line mods -- at least after a couple of centuries of experimentation.


I would think that the Harrington mods are on this side of the Beowulfan "Do not cross" road. Any further research beyond that point most probably would have been altered by the Malign, including unlocking the mods. Akin to unlocking an electronic device (iPhone) before tampering is possible.[/quote]
Theemile wrote:Don't forget, the Beowulf code was created POST Earth's Final War. A lot of genetic experimenting was done prior to that point, in the open, and placed into the populace, which would now be considered Verboten.


cthia wrote:I've always wondered how much of the raw data from 'the original experiments gone wrong' is available to the populace. Is the raw data in the public data banks? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Yet, who has access to the original data? Surely Albrecht did?


And, of course, Beowulf.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by ErrantVenture   » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:41 am

ErrantVenture
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:04 pm

Hey All. I was listening to Ashes of Victory this morning, when I came across the following passage that I had forgotten about. I think it might shed some light on the involvement of the MA with the Harrington's Meyerdahl mods. Apologies in advance if someone has already posted this info as I haven't kept up with every post in the thread!

"Ah, if you'd only been that biddable as a child!" Allison sighed. Then she sat completely upright and looked at her daughter much more seriously. "You and I have never discussed this, mainly because there was no need to," she began, "but as I say, I've watched you and Nimitz together from the very first day. And because I have, I realized years ago that your relationship had begun changing. I've seen enough other bonded pairs to know your link was always a bit different, and I went back and looked over the Harrington medical records very carefully when you were just a little girl. On the basis of my study, I think there's a specific reason so many Harringtons have been adopted over the years."

"You do?" Honor had forgotten the cookie in her hand, and her good eye was very intent as she gazed into her mother's face.

"I do. I started out by looking at precisely what was involved in the Meyerdahl genetic mods. Most people don't realize it, but there were actually four different modification sets within the single project. By this time they've intermingled enough to lose some of their original differentiation, but like a lot of other 'locked' mods, they've managed to stay remarkably stable and dominant over the generations. You and your father are direct descendants of the Meyerdahl Beta mod. I won't go into all the specifics, which wouldn't mean a great deal to you, anyway, but most of what it gave you is exactly what all the Meyerdahl recipients got: more efficient muscles, enhanced reaction speed, stronger bones, tougher cardiovascular and respiratory systems, and so on. But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.' We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions. For the most part, you can only enhance one aspect of the entire complex of attributes we think of as 'intelligence' at the expense of other aspects. That isn't an absolute, but it works as a rule of thumb, and it's one reason I never mentioned my research to you or your dad. There was no reason to—and the . . . less successful efforts at engineered intelligence were one reason Old Earth's Final War was as bad as it was. And one reason humanity in general turned so strongly against the entire concept of engineering human genes at all."

"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"

"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out. The really unsuccessful efforts, on the other hand, tended to show very high levels of aggressiveness, like the 'super soldiers' on Old Earth, and weed themselves out of the genotype. As a matter of fact, that aggressiveness was the most common nasty side effect of intelligence modification projects. Some of the recipients verged uncomfortably closely on sociopathic personalities, without the sort of moral governors people need in a healthy society. And when you coupled that with an awareness that they were designed to be (and usually were) quite a lot 'smarter,' at least in certain, specific ways, than the normals around them, they started acting like a pride of hexapumas quarreling over who should boss all those inferior normals about until they got around to picking out lunch."

She shrugged and ran the fingers of both hands through her hair, combing the long strands the sea breeze had begun to whip back from her face. "Then too, a lot of the IQ enhancements, in particular, simply tended to fade into the general background of the unmodified without showing any special advantages," she went on. "As I said, it usually worked out that the designers wound up enhancing one aspect of intelligence at the expense of one or more others, and what happened most often was that those who succeeded simply learned to use their enhanced abilities to compensate for the areas in which they'd taken a loss in ability. "In the case of the Meyerdahl Betas, however, the effort actually worked, by and large. One thing you should remember, Honor, is that evolution always wins in the end, but it does it by conserving the designs that happen to be able to survive, not by going out and deliberately creating leaps forward. In fact, I've always disliked using the word 'forward' in terms of evolution at all. We assign an arbitrary valuation to the changes we consider positive and call those 'leaps forward,' but nature doesn't care about that, except in the statistical sense that more individuals with Mutation A survive than those with Mutation B or C. In many circumstances, however, the enhanced aggressiveness we see as a destructive side effect could be a positive survival trait. In a high-tech society, with high-tech weaponry, and surrounded by vast numbers of people who didn't share that aggressiveness—and who were seen as inferior by many who did—it had . . . negative implications, let us say. Under other circumstances, like a colony on a world with serious external threats against which it could be focused, it might mean the difference between survival and extinction. "But even assuming we can all agree on what does constitute a natural 'leap forward,' those sorts of things happen only very occasionally. And we only know about the instances in which it happened and was conserved . . . which is approximately what happened in the case of your ancestors. "I ran the Harrington intelligence test results against the base norms for their populations, both here and back on Meyerdahl, and the evidence is very clear. So far, I've found only three Harringtons who placed below the ninety-fifth percentile in general intelligence, and well over eighty-five percent of those I've been able to check placed in the ninety-nine-plus percentile. You tend to be very smart people, and if I hadn't wound up in the same select company according to my own test scores, I'd probably come all over inferior feeling or something of the sort."

"Sure you would," Honor said dryly, but her eye was still wide as she considered what her mother had just told her. And especially what she'd said about "undesirable levels of aggressiveness."

"At any rate," Allison went on briskly, "I've come to suspect that an unintended consequence of the IQ enhancer effort, both in the Harrington line and, quite possibly, in the Winton line, was something that makes you more attractive, as a group, to treecats. Given that we know the 'cats are empaths, I'm inclined to think that the confluence of the IQ package as a whole makes you . . . call it 'brighter' or 'tastier' to the 'cats. As if your 'emotional aura' were stronger or more pronounced. Possibly more stable." She shrugged. "I can't explain it any better than that, because I'm shooting blind. This is one area in which there is absolutely no existing body of data, to the best of my knowledge, and we don't even begin to have the tools to define or explain it. As a matter of fact, I feel like a woman trying to describe how a sound smells or a color feels.

"But I've also come to suspect, over the last few years, that the changes in your link to Nimitz are also linked to the Meyerdahl Beta mods. Whatever it is that seems to make all Harringtons so much tastier to the 'cats is even more pronounced in you, and it may be that there are some unique aspects to Nimitz's abilities, as well. At any rate, for the first time in human-'cat history, you two have actually managed to establish a genuine, two-way bond. Or I think it's for the first time. Even if it is the result of the Meyerdahl Beta mods, the possibility has to exist that at least one or two totally unmodified humans could have developed the same ability. But it definitely exists for you and Nimitz," she said softly, "and, God, but I envy you that."


So here's my personal theory: The MA changed the parameters of the Meyerdahl Beta Mods (compared to the other Meyerdahl mods, potential without anyone else realizing it) to try and find that elusive balance between improved intelligence and hyper-aggression. When these changes did not show the hoped for genius-level intelligence improvements within the first generation or two of the mods, the MA gave up on the line. The Harringtons however left Meyerdahl systems for Sphinx where it became evident after many generations that the intended changes HAD succeeded in producing the hoped-for significant intelligence boosts without the side-effects of uncontrollable aggression. Additionally the mods had the completely un-intended effect of opening the Harringtons up to the same organic systems that convey the treecat's telempathic abilities (which my go a long way to explain how the uncontrollable aggression normally associated with intelligence mods was tempered).

I would also not be shocked if we find out someday soon that the Winton mods were another (perhaps very similar) part of an attempt by the MA to improve intelligence.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by JavierGiscard3141   » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:28 pm

JavierGiscard3141
Midshipman

Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:41 am

You know I was think if it eventually proves true. Than the MA had been more successful than they had originally intended. Plus they had also made a critical flaw and fatal mistake with their reaction by the detweilier boys tot he death of their parents. Plus if you think to include how many of honor is family they killed. Than the Wintons by invertly by create the people’s republic of heaven due to the assination of King Roger III. Though I think when the final confrontation happens it will be the Alexander-Harrington children taking the war too the MA with Honor herself as First Space Lord. Only time will tell. But I would love to read about the Detweilier boys reaction when the GA and it is allies walls of battle show up over Darius after smashing the Renaissance factor and Mason Alignmment Navies. Their reaction would be too precious to miss.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by ywing14   » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:15 pm

ywing14
Commander

Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:40 pm

ErrantVenture wrote:Hey All. I was listening to Ashes of Victory this morning, when I came across the following passage that I had forgotten about. I think it might shed some light on the involvement of the MA with the Harrington's Meyerdahl mods. Apologies in advance if someone has already posted this info as I haven't kept up with every post in the thread!

"Ah, if you'd only been that biddable as a child!" Allison sighed. Then she sat completely upright and looked at her daughter much more seriously. "You and I have never discussed this, mainly because there was no need to," she began, "but as I say, I've watched you and Nimitz together from the very first day. And because I have, I realized years ago that your relationship had begun changing. I've seen enough other bonded pairs to know your link was always a bit different, and I went back and looked over the Harrington medical records very carefully when you were just a little girl. On the basis of my study, I think there's a specific reason so many Harringtons have been adopted over the years."

"You do?" Honor had forgotten the cookie in her hand, and her good eye was very intent as she gazed into her mother's face.

"I do. I started out by looking at precisely what was involved in the Meyerdahl genetic mods. Most people don't realize it, but there were actually four different modification sets within the single project. By this time they've intermingled enough to lose some of their original differentiation, but like a lot of other 'locked' mods, they've managed to stay remarkably stable and dominant over the generations. You and your father are direct descendants of the Meyerdahl Beta mod. I won't go into all the specifics, which wouldn't mean a great deal to you, anyway, but most of what it gave you is exactly what all the Meyerdahl recipients got: more efficient muscles, enhanced reaction speed, stronger bones, tougher cardiovascular and respiratory systems, and so on. But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.' We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions. For the most part, you can only enhance one aspect of the entire complex of attributes we think of as 'intelligence' at the expense of other aspects. That isn't an absolute, but it works as a rule of thumb, and it's one reason I never mentioned my research to you or your dad. There was no reason to—and the . . . less successful efforts at engineered intelligence were one reason Old Earth's Final War was as bad as it was. And one reason humanity in general turned so strongly against the entire concept of engineering human genes at all."

"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"

"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out. The really unsuccessful efforts, on the other hand, tended to show very high levels of aggressiveness, like the 'super soldiers' on Old Earth, and weed themselves out of the genotype. As a matter of fact, that aggressiveness was the most common nasty side effect of intelligence modification projects. Some of the recipients verged uncomfortably closely on sociopathic personalities, without the sort of moral governors people need in a healthy society. And when you coupled that with an awareness that they were designed to be (and usually were) quite a lot 'smarter,' at least in certain, specific ways, than the normals around them, they started acting like a pride of hexapumas quarreling over who should boss all those inferior normals about until they got around to picking out lunch."

She shrugged and ran the fingers of both hands through her hair, combing the long strands the sea breeze had begun to whip back from her face. "Then too, a lot of the IQ enhancements, in particular, simply tended to fade into the general background of the unmodified without showing any special advantages," she went on. "As I said, it usually worked out that the designers wound up enhancing one aspect of intelligence at the expense of one or more others, and what happened most often was that those who succeeded simply learned to use their enhanced abilities to compensate for the areas in which they'd taken a loss in ability. "In the case of the Meyerdahl Betas, however, the effort actually worked, by and large. One thing you should remember, Honor, is that evolution always wins in the end, but it does it by conserving the designs that happen to be able to survive, not by going out and deliberately creating leaps forward. In fact, I've always disliked using the word 'forward' in terms of evolution at all. We assign an arbitrary valuation to the changes we consider positive and call those 'leaps forward,' but nature doesn't care about that, except in the statistical sense that more individuals with Mutation A survive than those with Mutation B or C. In many circumstances, however, the enhanced aggressiveness we see as a destructive side effect could be a positive survival trait. In a high-tech society, with high-tech weaponry, and surrounded by vast numbers of people who didn't share that aggressiveness—and who were seen as inferior by many who did—it had . . . negative implications, let us say. Under other circumstances, like a colony on a world with serious external threats against which it could be focused, it might mean the difference between survival and extinction. "But even assuming we can all agree on what does constitute a natural 'leap forward,' those sorts of things happen only very occasionally. And we only know about the instances in which it happened and was conserved . . . which is approximately what happened in the case of your ancestors. "I ran the Harrington intelligence test results against the base norms for their populations, both here and back on Meyerdahl, and the evidence is very clear. So far, I've found only three Harringtons who placed below the ninety-fifth percentile in general intelligence, and well over eighty-five percent of those I've been able to check placed in the ninety-nine-plus percentile. You tend to be very smart people, and if I hadn't wound up in the same select company according to my own test scores, I'd probably come all over inferior feeling or something of the sort."

"Sure you would," Honor said dryly, but her eye was still wide as she considered what her mother had just told her. And especially what she'd said about "undesirable levels of aggressiveness."

"At any rate," Allison went on briskly, "I've come to suspect that an unintended consequence of the IQ enhancer effort, both in the Harrington line and, quite possibly, in the Winton line, was something that makes you more attractive, as a group, to treecats. Given that we know the 'cats are empaths, I'm inclined to think that the confluence of the IQ package as a whole makes you . . . call it 'brighter' or 'tastier' to the 'cats. As if your 'emotional aura' were stronger or more pronounced. Possibly more stable." She shrugged. "I can't explain it any better than that, because I'm shooting blind. This is one area in which there is absolutely no existing body of data, to the best of my knowledge, and we don't even begin to have the tools to define or explain it. As a matter of fact, I feel like a woman trying to describe how a sound smells or a color feels.

"But I've also come to suspect, over the last few years, that the changes in your link to Nimitz are also linked to the Meyerdahl Beta mods. Whatever it is that seems to make all Harringtons so much tastier to the 'cats is even more pronounced in you, and it may be that there are some unique aspects to Nimitz's abilities, as well. At any rate, for the first time in human-'cat history, you two have actually managed to establish a genuine, two-way bond. Or I think it's for the first time. Even if it is the result of the Meyerdahl Beta mods, the possibility has to exist that at least one or two totally unmodified humans could have developed the same ability. But it definitely exists for you and Nimitz," she said softly, "and, God, but I envy you that."


So here's my personal theory: The MA changed the parameters of the Meyerdahl Beta Mods (compared to the other Meyerdahl mods, potential without anyone else realizing it) to try and find that elusive balance between improved intelligence and hyper-aggression. When these changes did not show the hoped for genius-level intelligence improvements within the first generation or two of the mods, the MA gave up on the line. The Harringtons however left Meyerdahl systems for Sphinx where it became evident after many generations that the intended changes HAD succeeded in producing the hoped-for significant intelligence boosts without the side-effects of uncontrollable aggression. Additionally the mods had the completely un-intended effect of opening the Harringtons up to the same organic systems that convey the treecat's telempathic abilities (which my go a long way to explain how the uncontrollable aggression normally associated with intelligence mods was tempered).

I would also not be shocked if we find out someday soon that the Winton mods were another (perhaps very similar) part of an attempt by the MA to improve intelligence.


Don't see too many Star Wars Expanded Universe references anymore.
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Re: UH SPOILERS Harrington family history
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:59 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 5058
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

The MA didn't tamper with the Meyerdahl B mods of Honor's ancestors. That was established well before Detweiler and company happened along. But they could well have aquired it later from another sourse...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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