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Sidearms

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Re: Sidearms
Post by jtg452   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:14 am

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Daryl wrote:My oldest son was into silhouette shooting for a while. For that you need a pistol with a high muzzle energy to ensure the metal targets dropped. His answer was a cut down bolt action .308. The shortened barrel made it loud, but the thing worked. More kick than a long barreled Blackhawk .44 mag.

The hand rifles like the Remington XP 100 and the TC Contenders or Encores are a whole 'nother level of operating pressures and power. And recoil. I've had numerous people offer to let me shoot their Contenders or Encores but shooting rounds designed to be fired from a 6 or 8 pound rifle from a 2 pound handgun doesn't sound like my idea of fun.

Getting the 300 yard plates to fall if there's a headwind is tough even with a .44Mag. That's why Dan Wesson came up with the Super Mags and .357 Maximum. Just like what had happened previously, someone upped the pressures and changed the powders used, so they lengthened the case so it wouldn't fit in guns chambered for the earlier incarnations. They also increased the bullet weight. There's load data for up to a 230gr bullet for the .357 Maximum. "Heavy" for .357Mag is usually a 158gr bullet.

I had a chance to buy a Dan Wesson .357Maximum back about 15 years ago but passed on it. It was a fantastic looking gun in great condition but there's a problem. There's nowhere close anymore that I could really stretch it out and shoot at the distances it's designed to be used. Paying that kind of money for a safe queen and conversation piece didn't make sense to me.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Ludcat does sound more apropos.

I wonder if Nimitz and Sam's kits will adapt to technology more naturally? They would be the first cats to grow up around humans and with human technology. Will they be able to shift their thinking to one that uses much more symbolism? Math is symbolism just as language is. 'Cats have never needed symbols to facilitate their understanding of the world. Direct memories passed from generation to generation have always sufficed. That is not enough when trying to understand human technology, much of which can't be directly experienced.

The kits may learn to understand human technology in ways their elders never could.


What you said just resonated with me in a way I never realized before. Treecats can't think abstractly, because their entire existence is memories or thoughts of actual objects or events. there are no "ifs", but stories of "when". No abstractions, only examples. Liberty is literally the feeling after escaping a trap or intense danger. Death is Literally the feeling of someone you know dying.

So if they don't have an example of it, comprehending it is totally alien to them.

So placeholders (like variables) literally do not exist for Treecats.


Exactly! That's why the Sam's kits are going to be an interesting set of individuals. They can see the use of the abstratctions from as early an age as they begin to sign. I doubt any treecat but those exposed to human abstractions at a very early age can learn how to apply those abstractions to their own thought patterns. Elder treecats might have a horrific time trying to reconcile symbolic thought to their own experiences.

One other thing to consider is that treecats have enormous memories, expecially Memory Singers. They store "memory pictures". They don't have a memory "app" that reconstructs common elements of shared memories to save space. Every memory is a unique analogue. Assuming their brains work similarly to human brains, 'cats may well have a much more efficient memory storage system to accomodate their smaller brain mass. It stands to reason that 'cats' brains would operate at least 2 more channels to account for mind voices and mind glows. So, instead of using the 6 average humans use, 'cats use at least 8. Those human channels would be the 5 senses and a channel to define the relational elements of the thought to the individual. Human memory also works best when organized in clumps of around 6.

The relational elements of a thought have to accomodate symbolism to some extent. They need to address concepts of conditional existance, future, possible future conditions and the menu of potential options available to the 'cat. None of these thoughts captures anything that exists for the 'cat. They are symbols in thought for what might exist. Otherwise, treecats would not be able to plan at all. Textev flatly states this is not the case.

All of this is my way of postulating 'cats have better information processing systems than humans in their heads. They simply need the proper programs written to accomodate their changed environment. They may never develop "software" to manipulate symbols as well as humans, but they almost certainly process stored information more quickly and more thoroughly.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by Maldorian   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:32 pm

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I think we could say, that there is still space for imprivements in our current weapon technology.

The main question was about Honorverse, esspecilly the Graysons. There was better steel needed, before the magnum revolver could be created, now think about high power titanium alloy´s, compensators and better explosives. I could imagine, that grayson firearms will beat every existing sideweapon with big distance.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:15 pm

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Maldorian wrote: I could imagine, that grayson firearms will beat every existing sideweapon with big distance.


Actually, I would expect an emphasis on preventing over-penetration in Grayson Arms development; they live in sealed habitats. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that domed cities have been practical, so long range hasn't been a big concern.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Sidearms
Post by Maldorian   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:25 pm

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Maldorian wrote:
I could imagine, that grayson firearms will beat every existing sideweapon with big distance.


Actually, I would expect an emphasis on preventing over-penetration in Grayson Arms development; they live in sealed habitats. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that domed cities have been practical, so long range hasn't been a big concern.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!


You know the everlasting fight between firepower and protection? If better armor is avilable, you need stronger weapons and go on.

And Ammonution is also athematic. The Police and Skymarshall´s use no penetratin ammo. Something that the Grayson´s maybe have also.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by jtg452   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:38 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Maldorian wrote: I could imagine, that grayson firearms will beat every existing sideweapon with big distance.


Actually, I would expect an emphasis on preventing over-penetration in Grayson Arms development; they live in sealed habitats. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that domed cities have been practical, so long range hasn't been a big concern.

That is currently more of a question of projectile design than anything else. Up until just a few years ago, jacketed hollow points needed a velocity of around 1000fps to get reliable expansion. Get too low on the velocity and the bullet acts like an ugly fmj instead of expanding. On the other hand, have it moving too fast and it goes through without the chance to expand at all.

The objective is to transfer the maximum amount of energy into the target. If the round goes through and through, that's wasted energy that's not being transferred. Frangibles like the Glazer line are an option but they have a record of not penetrating enough. A surface wound that's only a couple inches deep doesn't lead to an immediate stop. What you need is a controlled expansion with just enough velocity to get the job done. It's a delicate balancing act between the need for velocity and penetration and the need to ensure that there's not too much velocity or over penetration.

Pulsers in the Honorverse work so devastatingly well because the projectile is so tiny, so it has little mass to retain the momentum, and is moving at such a high velocity. Once the projectile impacts, it transfers all of the energy from the velocity into and through the target. In the case of hitting flesh, the hydrostatic shock that causes just obliterates what has been hit.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by kzt   » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:04 pm

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Maldorian wrote:And Ammunition is also athematic. The Police and Skymarshall´s use no penetrating ammo. Something that the Grayson´s maybe have also.

No, FAMS uses .357 SIG Speer Gold Dot jacketed hollow point rounds. This is not exactly low penetration. You might ask why they use that, and it's because FAMS is run by Secret Service groupies, and the USSS uses .357 SIG. So if a Sky Marshal ever has to stop a car trying to run him over in in Row 27 he'll be prepared to shoot through the windshield.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by Daryl   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:05 am

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Someone may be able to correct a fuzzy memory of mine from decades ago, concerning non penetrating ammunition.
When skyjacking first began, a major target was Israeli airliners. They were the first to use sky marshalls.
Now the uncertain memory bit is that I believe they developed a 9 mm round that had a copper jacket around a mixture of rat shot in mercury. Wouldn't penetrate a plane wall, just left a silver coloured depression, however on human flesh it took out a half orange sized hemisphere. The Israelis let it be known that if a highjacker held up a pretty hostess as a shield they would get through to him before the Uzi's magazine ran out.


kzt wrote:
Maldorian wrote:And Ammunition is also athematic. The Police and Skymarshall´s use no penetrating ammo. Something that the Grayson´s maybe have also.

No, FAMS uses .357 SIG Speer Gold Dot jacketed hollow point rounds. This is not exactly low penetration. You might ask why they use that, and it's because FAMS is run by Secret Service groupies, and the USSS uses .357 SIG. So if a Sky Marshal ever has to stop a car trying to run him over in in Row 27 he'll be prepared to shoot through the windshield.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by jtg452   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:21 am

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Daryl wrote:Someone may be able to correct a fuzzy memory of mine from decades ago, concerning non penetrating ammunition.
When skyjacking first began, a major target was Israeli airliners. They were the first to use sky marshalls.
Now the uncertain memory bit is that I believe they developed a 9 mm round that had a copper jacket around a mixture of rat shot in mercury. Wouldn't penetrate a plane wall, just left a silver coloured depression, however on human flesh it took out a half orange sized hemisphere. The Israelis let it be known that if a highjacker held up a pretty hostess as a shield they would get through to him before the Uzi's magazine ran out.


The Glaser ammunition (sold as the Glaser Safety Slug) I mentioned is built along that line- except the small shot (usually around #12) is in some sort of jell that's been compressed into the copper jacket. In theory, it penetrates a 2-4 inches, the jacket peels back, the core expands and releases the #12 shot into the target. It works like a sort of like a bullet version of a cluster bomb. The effect is that you have one entry wound and numerous primary wound channels inside the target. Since the #12 shot is so tiny, it doesn't have enough mass to maintain any velocity so over penetration is minimized.

I've never heard of using mercury like that. Prolonged mercury exposure does really nasty things to the human body and inhalation or ingestion is definitely not recommended. The arms industry did away with the use of mercury in primers for a reason.
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Re: Sidearms
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:51 pm

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Reports are that glazer safety slugs are not nearly as effective as you might expect. It’s really designed more for court houses, where you have hard surfaces everywhere to send ricochets everywhere. And it doesn’t ricochet.
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