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[Spoilers] The Missing scene?

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[Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by BrightSoul   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:34 pm

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Hi All,

After finishing the EARC there is one scene I REALLY wanted to read. It would have been between The surrender of the League and the meeting with Elizabeth at the end of the book.

I really wanted to see the consternation of the Detweilers when they realized that the League wasn't shattered, just shrunken. Beowulf still has all the required industry to build their share of the components Haven can't build yet. On top of this Honor was restrained and reasonable (sort of) when she took out the Mandarins.

What they have is a mess. A smaller and more cohesive league, an intact GA, shattered spy networks and no EE violations by the GA. On top of all this the ghost hunters and the GA are actively starting to put together the pieces. They have figured out that the Mesa bombs had to have been the same people who detonated the Beowulf bombs and are asking why. Once someone starts figuring out that this was intended to discredit the league and Manticore then who else is left on the range? Maya and the RF are the only players on the map and Barregos is too well known for anyone to believe it was him.

I really want to read about their pissing and moaning. :lol: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by Annachie   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:46 am

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No doubt they'll still be pissing and moaning about it in 20 t-years when the next books start.


Actually, I want to see the Mandarins interviewed by Honor and Nimitz.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by ncwolf   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:51 am

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Posts: 147
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BrightSoul wrote:Hi All,

<snip>

I really wanted to see the consternation of the Detweilers when they realized that the League wasn't shattered, just shrunken. Beowulf still has all the required industry to build their share of the components Haven can't build yet. On top of this Honor was restrained and reasonable (sort of) when she took out the Mandarins.

<snip>


Hey yourself.

Well, I'm not sure how much heavy industry Beowulf has left. There were an awful lot of explosions. On the other hand, with the war with the League over, missile production may be the only need.

And I think Harrington was restrained. I think she was told (they decided together) what terms to give to Old Terra before she left Manticore, although the text doesn't state it. She didn't kill Sollies by the scores nor thousands; those first cruisers were a near thing. That may have done her some good; I think she came out of her fury (her red funk), a little bit, enough.

As far as did the Alignment get everything they wanted; definitely not. The Grand Alliance--Solarian League War is over. Now the hunt for the "rabbits" can go forward without distractions (maybe); they lost a big coupe when Anton Zilwicki figured out what was going on with the "Ballroom" explosions on Mesa. On the other hand, the Solarian Union is dissolved, in that it's shorn of the Protectorates, en masse. That alone gives the Renaissance Factor lots of room to work in.

It boils down to how long it takes the Grand Alliance to find "the hole" (Darius) into which the rabbits have fled. How many pieces of the puzzle do they have? How many pieces does Zilwicki have? Traffic leaving Mesa in a (slightly) unusual pattern. Does Zilwicki have records of the ships? Does he (or Torch) have records of the two ships that were / were almost intercepted by the Torch Navy when they attacked the slave depot station? I remember the mission commander made a special note of them. If Zilwicki (or someone else) knows when those ships left Mesa and also knows about one them blowing up (basically suicide by Torch Navy, as it were), then they might have an idea of how far they have to look. See, I don't think Darius is that far away from Mesa. I don't think we're told, but Rufino Chernyshev did go by a more direct route to Darius, and something in the conversation with his gal pal (as I recall, natch) left me with the impression that it didn't take that long--one week or two. Still, two weeks in hyper, with streak drive, does cover a lot of territory so just brute force astronomy surveys from the Mesa system probably (assuming someone were to try that) won't give a practical number of star systems to check out. (Didn't someone say this months ago? Was it I?)

Will the Grand Alliance keep looking long enough to find Darius? It could take generations, unless they stick their heads up. The Renaissance Factor has been announced, so there is that. Nothing ties them to Mesa, so far as the galaxy at large knows.
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by ncwolf   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:52 am

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Annachie wrote:No doubt they'll still be pissing and moaning about it in 20 t-years when the next books start.


Actually, I want to see the Mandarins interviewed by Honor and Nimitz.


Did one of the Mandarins escape arrest?
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by Annachie   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:25 am

Annachie
Admiral

Posts: 2582
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:36 pm

ncwolf wrote:
Did one of the Mandarins escape arrest?

Maybe.

One was missing when the arrest happened.
We don't know if she turned up or not.

(But I'd guess she doesn't turn up. Future plot hook)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by kzt   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:03 am

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Beowulf cleverly separated industry and residential areas in different orbital structure. So Industry is pretty good, other then the one platform that got all blowed up.
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:54 am

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ncwolf wrote:
BrightSoul wrote:Hi All,

<snip>

I really wanted to see the consternation of the Detweilers when they realized that the League wasn't shattered, just shrunken. Beowulf still has all the required industry to build their share of the components Haven can't build yet. On top of this Honor was restrained and reasonable (sort of) when she took out the Mandarins.

<snip>


Hey yourself.

Well, I'm not sure how much heavy industry Beowulf has left. There were an awful lot of explosions. On the other hand, with the war with the League over, missile production may be the only need.

And I think Harrington was restrained. I think she was told (they decided together) what terms to give to Old Terra before she left Manticore, although the text doesn't state it. She didn't kill Sollies by the scores nor thousands; those first cruisers were a near thing. That may have done her some good; I think she came out of her fury (her red funk), a little bit, enough.

As far as did the Alignment get everything they wanted; definitely not. The Grand Alliance--Solarian League War is over. Now the hunt for the "rabbits" can go forward without distractions (maybe); they lost a big coupe when Anton Zilwicki figured out what was going on with the "Ballroom" explosions on Mesa. On the other hand, the Solarian Union is dissolved, in that it's shorn of the Protectorates, en masse. That alone gives the Renaissance Factor lots of room to work in.

It boils down to how long it takes the Grand Alliance to find "the hole" (Darius) into which the rabbits have fled. How many pieces of the puzzle do they have? How many pieces does Zilwicki have? Traffic leaving Mesa in a (slightly) unusual pattern. Does Zilwicki have records of the ships? Does he (or Torch) have records of the two ships that were / were almost intercepted by the Torch Navy when they attacked the slave depot station? I remember the mission commander made a special note of them. If Zilwicki (or someone else) knows when those ships left Mesa and also knows about one them blowing up (basically suicide by Torch Navy, as it were), then they might have an idea of how far they have to look. See, I don't think Darius is that far away from Mesa. I don't think we're told, but Rufino Chernyshev did go by a more direct route to Darius, and something in the conversation with his gal pal (as I recall, natch) left me with the impression that it didn't take that long--one week or two. Still, two weeks in hyper, with streak drive, does cover a lot of territory so just brute force astronomy surveys from the Mesa system probably (assuming someone were to try that) won't give a practical number of star systems to check out. (Didn't someone say this months ago? Was it I?)

Will the Grand Alliance keep looking long enough to find Darius? It could take generations, unless they stick their heads up. The Renaissance Factor has been announced, so there is that. Nothing ties them to Mesa, so far as the galaxy at large knows.


You are assuming that the Alignment really expected a total collapse. Chances are they realized there would just be a shrinking. And that would work for them because they probably have other people who can work their way into positions of power.

And having a League will hold at least some of the GA's attention. I don't know whether the RF will stay in the League or quit.

It might not be that easy to track down Darius and the rest. Houdini was obviously planned with keeping people hidden in mind.

Darius might not even be part of the "known galaxy." We know it, but does the League? Remember the destruction of the Manty explorer ship.

Also, even if someone came to Darius, would they know that Mesa's people were there? It would be easy to hide them and easier to simply have records that said that the ships involved in taking the people had moved on.
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by Slneezy   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:41 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
You are assuming that the Alignment really expected a total collapse. Chances are they realized there would just be a shrinking. And that would work for them because they probably have other people who can work their way into positions of power.

And having a League will hold at least some of the GA's attention. I don't know whether the RF will stay in the League or quit.




They sure didn't want a more coherent League though.

It is likely the League isn't going to be very favorably inclined towards the GA... but the contrast between GA restraint and the heavy handedness of the federal government - especially in the matter of Beowulf - is likely to take a lot of the emotional baggage out of it especially as more clues to how the Mesans manipulated the League surface (and they quite likely will surface now that the information networks inside the SLN are shattered).
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by pappilon   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:57 pm

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ncwolf wrote:
Well, I'm not sure how much heavy industry Beowulf has left. There were an awful lot of explosions. On the other hand, with the war with the League over, missile production may be the only need.


The SLN attacked basically the missile line section which was protected by an almost impenetrable wedge formed by RMMM ships set on automatic pilot so no crew was in jeopardy. some missiles did tale out some auxilliary production. The MAlign attack targeted the habitat rings, a definite EEE violation. BTW also a reprise of New Tuscany.

And I think Harrington was restrained. I think she was told (they decided together) what terms to give to Old Terra before she left Manticore, although the text doesn't state it. She didn't kill Sollies by the scores nor thousands; those first cruisers were a near thing. That may have done her some good; I think she came out of her fury (her red funk), a little bit, enough.


Yes she was restrained -by Mercedes Brigham. again reminiscent of HoTQ. She does manage to find very strong people to surround herself with.

As far as did the Alignment get everything they wanted; definitely not. The Grand Alliance--Solarian League War is over. Now the hunt for the "rabbits" can go forward without distractions (maybe); they lost a big coupe when Anton Zilwicki figured out what was going on with the "Ballroom" explosions on Mesa. On the other hand, the Solarian Union is dissolved, in that it's shorn of the Protectorates, en masse. That alone gives the Renaissance Factor lots of room to work in.


The MAlign got ... pretty much nothing. Manticore is not destroyed, indeed their clever ploy ended the war between Haven and Manticore. Basically, Manticore is 18 months ahead of its recovery from the Yawata Strike. Quite possibly Grayson is somewhat farther along in its recovery too.

There is no war between the SL & RoH, destroying one and leaving the other considerably weakened. Beowulf is not isolated. The league may or may not lose core membership, much beyond what has already occurred, of course it may do. Better governance may make whatever rises from the ashes of the old constitution, even healthier if not as large. It will still remain a powerful bloc economically, and have the potential for a formidable navy, one not directed toward the GA.

The SL may be shorn of its verge and protectorates but there is no great sequence of mass uprisings against the OFS/FF. Some chaos, indeed, will ensue mostly transstellars trying to prevent their sweetheart deals from shredding. But without the FF to intervene, they had best put on their best negotiating hat, There is not near the sense of fear generated for the RF to step in and provide a port in the great storm of uncertainty.

Of course, the GA's decision to not rescue the universe, but to let them learn to fight their own battles will play somewhat into the plans of the RF.


It boils down to how long it takes the Grand Alliance to find "the hole" (Darius) into which the rabbits have fled. How many pieces of the puzzle do they have? How many pieces does Zilwicki have? Traffic leaving Mesa in a (slightly) unusual pattern. Does Zilwicki have records of the ships? Does he (or Torch) have records of the two ships that were / were almost intercepted by the Torch Navy when they attacked the slave depot station? I remember the mission commander made a special note of them. If Zilwicki (or someone else) knows when those ships left Mesa and also knows about one them blowing up (basically suicide by Torch Navy, as it were), then they might have an idea of how far they have to look. See, I don't think Darius is that far away from Mesa. I don't think we're told, but Rufino Chernyshev did go by a more direct route to Darius, and something in the conversation with his gal pal (as I recall, natch) left me with the impression that it didn't take that long--one week or two. Still, two weeks in hyper, with streak drive, does cover a lot of territory so just brute force astronomy surveys from the Mesa system probably (assuming someone were to try that) won't give a practical number of star systems to check out. (Didn't someone say this months ago? Was it I?)

Will the Grand Alliance keep looking long enough to find Darius? It could take generations, unless they stick their heads up. The Renaissance Factor has been announced, so there is that. Nothing ties them to Mesa, so far as the galaxy at large knows.


ldwechsler wrote:You are assuming that the Alignment really expected a total collapse. Chances are they realized there would just be a shrinking. And that would work for them because they probably have other people who can work their way into positions of power.


They expected the near complete military destruction of the league as it battled first against the SEM, then the RoH, and yes losing the 20 -25% of the systems that voted against the Mandarins' resolution. and the FF battling lots of protectorate and verge systems in their rebellions. Again something that is not happening. There will be some chaos but not nearly what the RF was anticipating.

And having a League will hold at least some of the GA's attention. I don't know whether the RF will stay in the League or quit.


Textev says the RF has already declared itself. Right around the time Barrregos took off with Maya.

It might not be that easy to track down Darius and the rest. Houdini was obviously planned with keeping people hidden in mind.

Darius might not even be part of the "known galaxy." We know it, but does the League? Remember the destruction of the Manty explorer ship.

Also, even if someone came to Darius, would they know that Mesa's people were there? It would be easy to hide them and easier to simply have records that said that the ships involved in taking the people had moved on.


Very good points, There are more crumbs and hints than actual puzzle parts. Ships can file flight plans when they leave a system, they do not have to follow them. Actually putting boots to the ground chasing these crumbs can be a daunting task. No way of knowing where in the universe Carmen Sandiego slipped off to. Chasing a thousand ships, most legitimate, to their destinations. Finding people who actually found those few ships interesting or suspicious to even recall them? Crazy making at best. Unless Anton Zilwicki can create some magic algorithm to trace this stuff to a narrow window.

I think it will be an act of serendipity to actually discover DArius. Of course seeing all those Lenny Ds in orbit may make identifying it a bit easier.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: [Spoilers] The Missing scene?
Post by pappilon   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:05 pm

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:29 pm

Slneezy wrote:
They sure didn't want a more coherent League though.

It is likely the League isn't going to be very favorably inclined towards the GA... but the contrast between GA restraint and the heavy handedness of the federal government - especially in the matter of Beowulf - is likely to take a lot of the emotional baggage out of it especially as more clues to how the Mesans manipulated the League surface (and they quite likely will surface now that the information networks inside the SLN are shattered).



The league never was favorably inclined toward, well at least Manticore with their never sufficiently to be damned wormhole junction. I doubt that arrogance will evaporate. However, once the new constitution is raified and all the seismic activity settles, negotiations will begin again

With such a short and dramatic end to the conflict, the RMMM may be in better shape to recover. C'est a dire many of the smaller firms may not actuallt go under.

Another question: what does Manticore do with all the wormholes seized during Lacoon 2?
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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