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(Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.

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(Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by ThisName1   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:31 pm

ThisName1
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And I like Erewhon even less now. I'm only part of the way through the book and combining whats happening there with what I know from the main series they seem to me to be callus, petulant, children.

The whole using Princess Ruth as bait to catch the masadens resulted in the deaths, entirely preventable, of the princess's bodyguard as well as the civilian casualties. Maybe I'm wrong but they erewhonese knew about the kidnapping attempt enough in advance that they could have warned empresses own to get her off of the station before the masadans were ready. But since that would have lost them the opportunity to take the masadans out they decided to have a shootout in a crowded room instead. So all the deaths are layed, In my opinion, at Erewhon's feet.


Then there's the whole treaty with haven and the tech transfer. I understand why Erewhon signed it and I can't fault them for it, High Ridge was an ass. But the feeling I got was that they went from telling manticore their angry to handing over the tech in no time flat. I could easily be wrong but I don't remember and can't find any mention of any formal withdrawing from relationships with manticore prior to signing the treaty with haven. And that strikes me as a very petulant move.

To be honest even with imbesi's plausible deniability I don't know why Elizabeth didn't shut out erewhon from the wormhole.

Feel free to ignore this especially since the publish date of crown of slaves is 2003, it's probably already been discussed to death in the last 15 years. And i just wanted to vent.
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:47 pm

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The entire scene, where everyone but the very highly trained hyperaware security team, could obviously see that the attackers coming from a mile away annoy me greatly. And nobody from the team was in the main surveillance room or protecting their rooms. And they didn't bother to request anyone from the Marine company on the CA nearby, or even hire locals.

It's like a how to on "how a band of blundering incompetent 'bodyguards' with guns can get their principle killed."
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by TangoLima   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:18 pm

TangoLima
Commander

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I passed most of that kind of stuff off as lame plot
devices and tried to enjoy the story. It was
difficult. The people and background parts of the story
made up for most them.
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:17 pm

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ThisName1 wrote:And I like Erewhon even less now. I'm only part of the way through the book and combining whats happening there with what I know from the main series they seem to me to be callus, petulant, children.


You have to take into consideration that the Erewhonese are the cultural descendants of the Sicilian Mafia. From that beginning, they should be considered mellow and mature, caring people -- relatively speaking, of course. :D

ThisName1 wrote:The whole using Princess Ruth as bait to catch the masadens resulted in the deaths, entirely preventable, of the princess's bodyguard as well as the civilian casualties. Maybe I'm wrong but they erewhonese knew about the kidnapping attempt enough in advance that they could have warned empresses own to get her off of the station before the masadans were ready. ...


That was Victor and Thandi's game and Imbezi was just an observer (and facilitator, of sorts.) Victor had no responsibility to the Manticoran military personnel, because Haven was still technically at war with Manticore. You may have noticed that "Black Victor" is a bit ruthless when he sets his sights on a specific goal. Thandi isn't noticeably less ruthless in going for her goals.

The whole book is essentially Victor free-styling and dragging entire planets along with him.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:39 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:That was Victor and Thandi's game and Imbezi was just an observer (and facilitator, of sorts.) Victor had no responsibility to the Manticoran military personnel, because Haven was still technically at war with Manticore.

What's the worse that could happen to Erehwon after they arranged for the Queen's granddaughter to get killed on a state visit? And this after selling critical military technology to someone at war with Manticore. I'm sure the the woman who is renowned for her grudges, and runs the most powerful military in the region would be understanding and not at all inclined to have a BatRon obliterate everything in orbit as an object lesson. Really, what could possibly go wrong for Erehwon?
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
The whole book is essentially Victor free-styling and dragging entire planets along with him.


Everything Victor does is free styling. He even freestyles on top of his freestyling!
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:05 am

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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:That was Victor and Thandi's game and Imbezi was just an observer (and facilitator, of sorts.) Victor had no responsibility to the Manticoran military personnel, because Haven was still technically at war with Manticore.

What's the worse that could happen to Erehwon after they arranged for the Queen's granddaughter to get killed on a state visit? And this after selling critical military technology to someone at war with Manticore. I'm sure the the woman who is renowned for her grudges, and runs the most powerful military in the region would be understanding and not at all inclined to have a BatRon obliterate everything in orbit as an object lesson. Really, what could possibly go wrong for Erehwon?


The Erewhonese didn't know what was going on. They would have intervened had they known. We knew because RFC told us.

The leaders of Erewhon did not want trouble with Manticore. We already know they had been trying to work with the Winton dynasty but Baron High Ridge had constantly been in the way.

As for the transfer of tech, they were blindsided.

I would bet that relatively soon after UH they will be more or less associated with the GA.
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by pappilon   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:04 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:As for the transfer of tech, they were blindsided.

I would bet that relatively soon after UH they will be more or less associated with the GA.


They only got blindsided by the fact that as soon as they signed on with Haven hostilities resumed. Of course QEIII is ... put off.
All the way back before SFtS, its been a recurring theme.

And with their [defensive] alliance with Haven already a thing, doesn't that make them already a part of the GA much like Grayson is?
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by Slneezy   » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:50 pm

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kzt wrote:What's the worse that could happen to Erehwon after they arranged for the Queen's granddaughter to get killed on a state visit? And this after selling critical military technology to someone at war with Manticore. I'm sure the the woman who is renowned for her grudges, and runs the most powerful military in the region would be understanding and not at all inclined to have a BatRon obliterate everything in orbit as an object lesson. Really, what could possibly go wrong for Erehwon?


Manticore runs the most powerful military in the region in great part because they can repeatedly pull multiple tech leaps out of their asses while everyone else plays catch up. It isn't just the MDMs but they've got better compensators, smaller FTL communicators, stronger missiles and get Apollo at a critical juncture leaving not just Heaven and the SLN but also pretty much every other power (like the Andermani) in the dust.

Erewhon is tight with both the League and Haven both of which have greater fleets ton for ton - they obviously can't expect Manticore to consistently outdistance everyone in terms of technology - nobody can. The only ones that come anywhere close to matching Manticore in naval tech development is MAlign.
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Re: (Spoilers) I'm finally getting around to reading COS.
Post by n7axw   » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:08 pm

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Slneezy wrote:
kzt wrote:What's the worse that could happen to Erehwon after they arranged for the Queen's granddaughter to get killed on a state visit? And this after selling critical military technology to someone at war with Manticore. I'm sure the the woman who is renowned for her grudges, and runs the most powerful military in the region would be understanding and not at all inclined to have a BatRon obliterate everything in orbit as an object lesson. Really, what could possibly go wrong for Erehwon?


Manticore runs the most powerful military in the region in great part because they can repeatedly pull multiple tech leaps out of their asses while everyone else plays catch up. It isn't just the MDMs but they've got better compensators, smaller FTL communicators, stronger missiles and get Apollo at a critical juncture leaving not just Heaven and the SLN but also pretty much every other power (like the Andermani) in the dust.

Erewhon is tight with both the League and Haven both of which have greater fleets ton for ton - they obviously can't expect Manticore to consistently outdistance everyone in terms of technology - nobody can. The only ones that come anywhere close to matching Manticore in naval tech development is MAlign.


Wonder if Eloise thinks she is in Heaven... :lol: sorry, I couldn't resist! :twisted:

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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