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-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by pappilon   » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:29 pm

pappilon
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kzt wrote:If you need to apply leverage to the core worlds you need to make them notice you. Not sure how you can do this without blowing up stuff. So I'm sure it got noticed. However what got blown up wasn't in the core worlds, it was the capital of the SL. So I don't know.


Yes, well put. Nothing like the threat of being shot in the morning to clarify your thinking. And remember those space installation evacuations of the Havenite wars? as long as there is good faith effort to accomplish the goal, there is nothing to suggest Honor, or whomever she left in charge will not grant a temporary reprieve to the next planets on the hit list.

Give them credit for their learning curve in The Talbott Quadrant.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:05 am

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Honor should not have been in charge on the attack on Sol.

Look at current nuclear weapon security procedures:

She lost Emily. That's wy more than enough to get one temporarily removed from any association with the bombs.

She thought she lost Hamish. Likewise.

There was no need to send her, it wasn't a challenging mission at all.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:13 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Honor should not have been in charge on the attack on Sol.

Look at current nuclear weapon security procedures:

She lost Emily. That's wy more than enough to get one temporarily removed from any association with the bombs.

She thought she lost Hamish. Likewise.

There was no need to send her, it wasn't a challenging mission at all.

She handled it just fine. Removing her from command before she did something would harm her further. Elizabeth wouldn't have allowed it without Honor's request.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Joat42   » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:58 am

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PeterZ wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Honor should not have been in charge on the attack on Sol.

Look at current nuclear weapon security procedures:

She lost Emily. That's wy more than enough to get one temporarily removed from any association with the bombs.

She thought she lost Hamish. Likewise.

There was no need to send her, it wasn't a challenging mission at all.

She handled it just fine. Removing her from command before she did something would harm her further. Elizabeth wouldn't have allowed it without Honor's request.

And I believe that Elizabeth thought that whatever Honor would do in Sol they had it coming.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Jacob Zavala   » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:02 pm

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pappilon wrote:
kzt wrote:If you need to apply leverage to the core worlds you need to make them notice you. Not sure how you can do this without blowing up stuff. So I'm sure it got noticed. However what got blown up wasn't in the core worlds, it was the capital of the SL. So I don't know.


Yes, well put. Nothing like the threat of being shot in the morning to clarify your thinking. And remember those space installation evacuations of the Havenite wars? as long as there is good faith effort to accomplish the goal, there is nothing to suggest Honor, or whomever she left in charge will not grant a temporary reprieve to the next planets on the hit list.

Give them credit for their learning curve in The Talbott Quadrant.


I didn't mean that I thought Honor or the GA would actually do it, I meant that the new Government of the SL would likely do whatever they thought would prevent her from doing it. They certainly have no reason to believe she wouldn't carry through on her threats. Remember, thanks to a combination of Abruzzi and his pet newsies and her attack on the Sol systems' infrastructure, most of them are convinced she's an unstable lunatic. In their position, I'd be scrambling to hang every government official she might mention offhand if only to keep her from exploding.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by ywing14   » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:24 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Honor should not have been in charge on the attack on Sol.

Look at current nuclear weapon security procedures:

She lost Emily. That's wy more than enough to get one temporarily removed from any association with the bombs.

She thought she lost Hamish. Likewise.

There was no need to send her, it wasn't a challenging mission at all.


There wasn't enough cause to remove her. Rarely in the annuals of history has anyone been removed for losing too many people they care. Honor wasn't exhibiting any signs of battle fatigue. If prior to the battle she was acting in a way that made the queen question her conduct then sure you could have removed her. But honestly, who were you going to replace her with? The RHN had solid commanders but no one could bind the GA fleet together they way she had.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by pappilon   » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:33 am

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kzt wrote:If you need to apply leverage to the core worlds you need to make them notice you. Not sure how you can do this without blowing up stuff. So I'm sure it got noticed. However what got blown up wasn't in the core worlds, it was the capital of the SL. So I don't know.

pappilon wrote:Yes, well put. Nothing like the threat of being shot in the morning to clarify your thinking. And remember those space installation evacuations of the Havenite wars? as long as there is good faith effort to accomplish the goal, there is nothing to suggest Honor, or whomever she left in charge will not grant a temporary reprieve to the next planets on the hit list.

Give them credit for their learning curve in The Talbott Quadrant.



Jacob Zavala wrote:I didn't mean that I thought Honor or the GA would actually do it, I meant that the new Government of the SL would likely do whatever they thought would prevent her from doing it. They certainly have no reason to believe she wouldn't carry through on her threats. Remember, thanks to a combination of Abruzzi and his pet newsies and her attack on the Sol systems' infrastructure, most of them are convinced she's an unstable lunatic. In their position, I'd be scrambling to hang every government official she might mention offhand if only to keep her from exploding.



There is no new government until a new constitution is passed out of convention and ratified by whatever means the constitution specifies. Until then, Earth is under martial law and the Solaran league is legally dubious as an entity.

And the threat may be a bluff, but, as you say, her reputation precedes her. The problem is The Salamander doesn't bluff any better than she lies (ok, yeah, a bluff is a lie). I don't think we misread your post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Krenn   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:10 am

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There were two elements near the end that really threw me...

1: The Admirals defending Sol figured out VERY quickly that they were basically doomed. They had a good estimate of how much trouble they were in the moment they saw the opposition arrived, and they managed to confirm that shortly thereafter.

However.... The Mandarins had no clue how much trouble they were in, and the Admirals apparently never anticipated this threat, and never warned the Mandarins.

That seems very odd to me: You'd think that warning your political leadership about how badly your navy might lose if the enemy goes on the offensive would be a standard line item during any admirality-political leadership briefings...

2: Queen Elizabeth's proposal at the end, for automatic dual citizenship for all Havenites and Manticorans struck me as being a REALLY bad idea. automatic dual RESIDENCY in each country might make sense, or the right to transfer citizenship at-will might make sense....

But dual Citizenship for everyone, whether they like or not it, would get really ugly. Hypothetically, that would mean that Haven is entitled to tax, draft into service, charge with crimes, ban patents of nobility, subpoena records, and generally do anything they want to all Manticoran Citizens.. and vice versa. It would also normally mean that all Citizens are entitled to vote in BOTH elections,

I suspect that what Queen Elizabeth REALLY means is reciprocal RESIDENCY. That makes a LOT more sense: Dual citizenship law is generally a nightmare even in the current real world.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by n7axw   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:38 am

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Krenn wrote:There were two elements near the end that really threw me...

1: The Admirals defending Sol figured out VERY quickly that they were basically doomed. They had a good estimate of how much trouble they were in the moment they saw the opposition arrived, and they managed to confirm that shortly thereafter.

However.... The Mandarins had no clue how much trouble they were in, and the Admirals apparently never anticipated this threat, and never warned the Mandarins.

That seems very odd to me: You'd think that warning your political leadership about how badly your navy might lose if the enemy goes on the offensive would be a standard line item during any admirality-political leadership briefings...

2: Queen Elizabeth's proposal at the end, for automatic dual citizenship for all Havenites and Manticorans struck me as being a REALLY bad idea. automatic dual RESIDENCY in each country might make sense, or the right to transfer citizenship at-will might make sense....

But dual Citizenship for everyone, whether they like or not it, would get really ugly. Hypothetically, that would mean that Haven is entitled to tax, draft into service, charge with crimes, ban patents of nobility, subpoena records, and generally do anything they want to all Manticoran Citizens.. and vice versa. It would also normally mean that all Citizens are entitled to vote in BOTH elections,

I suspect that what Queen Elizabeth REALLY means is reciprocal RESIDENCY. That makes a LOT more sense: Dual citizenship law is generally a nightmare even in the current real world.


Hi Krenn,

Just a brief comment about the admirals and the Mandarins. Just remember how convoluted the relationships were between the military and the bureaucrats. Both sides have been playing competitive games for so long that it never occurs to either side that there might be a time to set aside the games and cooperate. Thus when it falls into the crapper, what the admirals do is force of habit...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:42 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Honor should not have been in charge on the attack on Sol.

Look at current nuclear weapon security procedures:

She lost Emily. That's wy more than enough to get one temporarily removed from any association with the bombs.

She thought she lost Hamish. Likewise.

There was no need to send her, it wasn't a challenging mission at all.


There wasn't enough cause to remove her. Rarely in the annuals of history has anyone been removed for losing too many people they care. Honor wasn't exhibiting any signs of battle fatigue. If prior to the battle she was acting in a way that made the queen question her conduct then sure you could have removed her. But honestly, who were you going to replace her with? The RHN had solid commanders but no one could bind the GA fleet together they way she had.


I'm specifically talking about our nuclear weapons handling procedures, not command in general. And she was put in charge of stuff vastly more powerful than our biggest bombs.
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