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-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by pappilon   » Tue May 15, 2018 5:26 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I believe the system was the Czech descended Chetobor. In keeping with Czechoslovakia's peaceful separation into Slovakia and the Czech Republic, Chetobor managed their own peaceful landing.


Bearing that situation in mind, I believe that the GA will be using such successes as examples for the near by systems to emulate. The Kingdom of Meyers will likely become some sort of central Imperial political hub for nearby ex-Protectorates and Chetobor will function as a similar example for their neighborhood. The probable diplomatic strategy would be to encourage regional alliances/organizations to fix their local problems themselves. The GA may participate for larger issues, but the preferrence is for these systems to solve their own problems.


Such systems will be easier to accept into the GA, once they have settled most of their purely local issues. The same is true for any economic relationship with GA nations and their private corporations. The hub system will hold the economic envoy for the region as well as agents for the large SEM/Andy/Grayson/Havenite businesses. That envoy can communicate just how comforting to private investors find investing in systems that can find a peaceful resolution to the problems attendent with OFS' activities for the past many centuries. Such proof of a mature interstellar outlook bodes well for any investments brought into the star nation.


Yes, lots of turmoil, lots of uncertainty, lots of growing pains. Lots of opportunity for the RF to sow discord, stir the pot, rake the muck, and chum the waters. Room for warlordism and blatant opportunism as well. Let the interesting times begin
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by ywing14   » Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 pm

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I think most of us would agree that the transtellars as we know them now are going to either have to change in a big way or they'll be going the way of the dinosaur.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue May 15, 2018 9:54 pm

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Slneezy wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
Who is going to be doing the cutting? The GA isn't and the only other entity out there that could is Maya--and it's not likely the GA would let them even if they wanted to.

Maybe in the future they'll need to tax to afford an adequate military but not at present.


They know about MAlign.


Yeah--but nobody has seen a single MAlign warship. Why build a big fleet against someone who doesn't appear to have a navy?

More importantly they just pathetically lost a war against a benighted bunch of Neobarbs. The new League's military budget will skyrocket and many of the League's core worlds may very well build or buy a couple squads of new style SD(P)s for themselves.


Once they figure out how to make something in the ballpark of current GA capabilities. That's going to be some years down the road, especially if the GA goes after Technodyne.

For the League 1000 SD(P)s is a necessity which they can fulfill with pocket change.


Anything they can do with pocket change can be done with their trade-based financing, no need for an income tax.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 15, 2018 10:22 pm

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I think it would be better to tax for necessary services to pay for services rendered. League members are more likely to pay attention to what is going on and insist on accountability if they are actually paying for it.

In large measure, the thing that went wrong with the old League was that the bureaucrats were able to develop sources of income apart from the League members and able to go their merry way with no accountability at all. That in large measure was how the mess in the Verge happened.

It would be far more healthy for League members to be taxed and then hold the bureaucrats accountable for how the money is spent.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Slneezy   » Wed May 16, 2018 4:26 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Yeah--but nobody has seen a single MAlign warship. Why build a big fleet against someone who doesn't appear to have a navy?


Because they don't know that MAlign doesn't have a navy? If a hostile power infiltrates you the sensible reaction is to prepare.

Once they figure out how to make something in the ballpark of current GA capabilities. .


The League's naval info is certainly backed up - going after Technodyne is going to do nothing but piss off the League. The League's main problems aren't technological but doctrinal - they could at least build anything pre-GA Haven could in job lots but partly due to MAlign meddling and partly because of the the less than impressive thinkers that plagued the SLN (particularly Battle Fleet) their ships were obsolete.


Anything they can do with pocket change can be done with their trade-based financing, no need for an income tax.


They're going to be losing the Protectorates and some members, while their expenses are skyrocketing, while they're still paying all the war debt. Income tax is, at least temporarily, pretty much a necessity.

Besides the League has suffered the greatest systemic military failure and the greatest systemic intelligence failure in its history. If they've got an ounce of self preservation its members are going to throw everything they have in being defended.

I could see a SLN with 10000 fully manned SD(P)s a decade or so into the future.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 16, 2018 5:11 pm

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Slneezy wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
Yeah--but nobody has seen a single MAlign warship. Why build a big fleet against someone who doesn't appear to have a navy?


Because they don't know that MAlign doesn't have a navy? If a hostile power infiltrates you the sensible reaction is to prepare.

Once they figure out how to make something in the ballpark of current GA capabilities. .


The League's naval info is certainly backed up - going after Technodyne is going to do nothing but piss off the League. The League's main problems aren't technological but doctrinal - they could at least build anything pre-GA Haven could in job lots but partly due to MAlign meddling and partly because of the the less than impressive thinkers that plagued the SLN (particularly Battle Fleet) their ships were obsolete.


Anything they can do with pocket change can be done with their trade-based financing, no need for an income tax.


They're going to be losing the Protectorates and some members, while their expenses are skyrocketing, while they're still paying all the war debt. Income tax is, at least temporarily, pretty much a necessity.

Besides the League has suffered the greatest systemic military failure and the greatest systemic intelligence failure in its history. If they've got an ounce of self preservation its members are going to throw everything they have in being defended.

I could see a SLN with 10000 fully manned SD(P)s a decade or so into the future.



10000 SD(p)s??? Were I John Q Public on a League world, I'd be asking what on earth for? Who are we planning to conquer? It would make more sense to make friends with your neighbors and promote trade, perhaps negotiating some arms limitation agreements.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 16, 2018 5:49 pm

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n7axw wrote:
10000 SD(p)s??? Were I John Q Public on a League world, I'd be asking what on earth for? Who are we planning to conquer? It would make more sense to make friends with your neighbors and promote trade, perhaps negotiating some arms limitation agreements.

Don

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The League has 10,000 white elephants now, built over 250 years. If someone tries to build 10,000 SD(p)s, someone else will point out the previous fleet's uselessness and snip the appropriations to a fraction of that.

Loren's correct, no one "knows" the Malign has warships - I've mentioned before that OB could have been accomplished just as well by freighters, not warships, and Beowulf proved that. The only spider drives spotted were on the torpedoes - NOT the warships. There is the assumption that invisible ships made the attack, but just like the Ghost scout ships in Manticore or the Silver Bullets at Beowulf, Freighters, covered as legimitate shipping could have delivered the Graser torpodos and pods and left them to swim into the system on their own.

And at that, the number of missile platforms seen in the OB raid could have been accounted for by 1 SD(p) (or ammo freighter) attacking each target. Just 4 GA ships could have accomplished what 27 Sharks did. So why should everyone think thousands of invisible ships, when 4 normal ones could have accomplished the mission? As Military minds, they are thinking the worst case senario, which is invisible warships, but nothing proves that there are thousands of them, if they exist at all.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed May 16, 2018 8:02 pm

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Theemile wrote:
n7axw wrote:
10000 SD(p)s??? Were I John Q Public on a League world, I'd be asking what on earth for? Who are we planning to conquer? It would make more sense to make friends with your neighbors and promote trade, perhaps negotiating some arms limitation agreements.

Don

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The League has 10,000 white elephants now, built over 250 years. If someone tries to build 10,000 SD(p)s, someone else will point out the previous fleet's uselessness and snip the appropriations to a fraction of that.

Loren's correct, no one "knows" the Malign has warships - I've mentioned before that OB could have been accomplished just as well by freighters, not warships, and Beowulf proved that. The only spider drives spotted were on the torpedoes - NOT the warships. There is the assumption that invisible ships made the attack, but just like the Ghost scout ships in Manticore or the Silver Bullets at Beowulf, Freighters, covered as legimitate shipping could have delivered the Graser torpodos and pods and left them to swim into the system on their own.

And at that, the number of missile platforms seen in the OB raid could have been accounted for by 1 SD(p) (or ammo freighter) attacking each target. Just 4 GA ships could have accomplished what 27 Sharks did. So why should everyone think thousands of invisible ships, when 4 normal ones could have accomplished the mission? As Military minds, they are thinking the worst case senario, which is invisible warships, but nothing proves that there are thousands of them, if they exist at all.



Let's not go overboard on numbers of MAlign ships. It would be foolish to build too many right away. For a while, it is going to want to stay under the radar. Having a huge fleet would give a real lot away.

Also, there's no real point in having it for a while. A large navy at this point would not only bring the GA in it might bring in the Solarian League. Nothing like kicking the daylights out of OTHER bad guys to make real friendships.

And for a while the League would love to do it. It would be great to blame everything on the Renaissance Factor aka MAlign.

Having 1000 ships would cost a lot and the more the navy did, the more notice the group would get. Better to keep things quiet for a while.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 16, 2018 8:29 pm

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We know that both the sharks and the Lenny Dets are spiders. Further we know that the sharks were active in Manticore and Grayson. I'm not sure about Beowulf. So far they are avoiding contact with conventional forces, relying instead on stealth.

In terms of numbers, we don't have enough info to guess, although I am inclined to speculate that the numbers would be low rather than high.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: -SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed May 16, 2018 10:25 pm

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Theemile wrote:The League has 10,000 white elephants now, built over 250 years. If someone tries to build 10,000 SD(p)s, someone else will point out the previous fleet's uselessness and snip the appropriations to a fraction of that.


Snip it to zero. Their current navy is plenty strong enough against any opponent they can fight, it's nothing but targets to the GA. Why build more? All they should be spending money on is R&D.

Once they can match Honor's strike at the reserve is when to consider building ships.

Loren's correct, no one "knows" the Malign has warships - I've mentioned before that OB could have been accomplished just as well by freighters, not warships, and Beowulf proved that. The only spider drives spotted were on the torpedoes - NOT the warships. There is the assumption that invisible ships made the attack, but just like the Ghost scout ships in Manticore or the Silver Bullets at Beowulf, Freighters, covered as legimitate shipping could have delivered the Graser torpodos and pods and left them to swim into the system on their own.

And at that, the number of missile platforms seen in the OB raid could have been accounted for by 1 SD(p) (or ammo freighter) attacking each target. Just 4 GA ships could have accomplished what 27 Sharks did. So why should everyone think thousands of invisible ships, when 4 normal ones could have accomplished the mission? As Military minds, they are thinking the worst case senario, which is invisible warships, but nothing proves that there are thousands of them, if they exist at all.


Note, also, that the MAlign operates much as a current-era terrorist group. Nobody worries about countering a terrorist navy. There's no reason for the MAlign to have those Sharks anyway. The MAlign operates by stealth--push pods out the hatch, don't fire missiles from tubes! Defenses are basically useless--stopping 99% of the inbounds gets you nothing. A mil-spec freighter with missile control channels would serve just as well.
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