-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

Manticore's safest bet is, if possible, to make friends with the League and/or its components so that no one feels the need for revenge.

At the same time there does need to be some accountability for what happened at Beowulf and the League's part in it.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Manticore's safest bet is, if possible, to make friends with the League and/or its components so that no one feels the need for revenge.

Which was the Harrington Plan from day one. Eh?

n7axw wrote:At the same time there does need to be some accountability for what happened at Beowulf and the League's part in it.

Don -

So, like... reparations? Can't imagine anything more that would start chipping away at "make nice and be friends". Just wondering.

Slneezy wrote:
On the flip side nobody from the GA wants the League's (maybe former) core worlds unleashed from any and all moral restraints and firmly placed on the path of revenge.

Particularly not with MAlgin still lurking in the shadows, ready to exploit any vulnerabilities.

Easing out the pressure and letting the various factions in the League club themselves trying to figure out a new way of doing things is a lot better or at least safer from a GA perspective.

So let whomever wants to bail just bail, and if everyone bails that's cool too? Causes problems, somewhat. Lots of security issues what with The Renaisance Factor and their own Case Buccaneer lurking out there to create the illusion of the universe going south very quickly. Definitely an option but not a good one for the GA.

But yeah, thinking on it a bit that is certainly a viable option under Honor's demands.

pappilon wrote:

n7axw wrote:Manticore's safest bet is, if possible, to make friends with the League and/or its components so that no one feels the need for revenge.

Which was the Harrington Plan from day one. Eh?

n7axw wrote:At the same time there does need to be some accountability for what happened at Beowulf and the League's part in it.

Don -

So, like... reparations? Can't imagine anything more that would start chipping away at "make nice and be friends". Just wondering.

Reparations are reasonable. There were 6 systems that Buccaneer destroyed and Beowulf's destroyed habitats. Beowulf is canny enough to blame the MAlign for the actual destruction of those habitats and claim the SLN as unwitting accomplices. Requiring the Solarian League to pay reparations to those systems by rebuilding their infrastructure will go over easy enough. The rebuilding will be accomplished by companies looking to recoup lost revenue. This debt will be tied up in all the antebellum Solarian debt in that too many debt/bond holders in the Core World's will demand the new League honor the pre-war debts.

Since the SEM isn't demanding reparations for itself, the New League will pay their companies to rebuild the neutral systems the Old League destroyed. Sure the SEM will demand compensation for housing and repatriating SLN POWs, but that's a drop in the bucket. The bulk of the reparations will amount to Keynesian stimulus the New League will infuse into their disrupted economy. With the New League rebuilding the infrastructure of those 6 systems, the displaced workers of those systems are free to rebuild the foundations of the SEM's manufacturing infrastructure.

Structured that way it becomes classic Chicago pork greasing all the interested palms that make the gears of government turn. The transstellars are as happy as they are likely to be and will continue to make political donations. The new representatives will be "saving" Solarian jobs. The remaining Solarian systems know they are getting off easy by only rebuilding those 6 systems and not paying any tribute to the GA.

Of course, the League issued debt to fund infrastructure to systems like the Maya sector may become sticky wickets. Not sure just how may OFS system's governors will either throw in with Baregos or have their systems populace violently demand inclusion in Maya's co-prosperity sphere. Regardless of how many, too many Solarian movers and shakers own that debt for the New League to renege any of it. The total debt will be spread across all the Old League member systems. That or those that did NOT at least try to have local referendums regarding League policy.

pappilon wrote:So, like... reparations? Can't imagine anything more that would start chipping away at "make nice and be friends". Just wondering.

They probably won't be all that high compared to what the League can provide if it gets a decent financing mechanism under it. I'd say they'll likely be considerably lower than the debt the former League government has already incurred with all the military operations and stuff in the Verge.

pappilon wrote:So let whomever wants to bail just bail, and if everyone bails that's cool too? Causes problems, somewhat. Lots of security issues what with The Renaisance Factor and their own Case Buccaneer lurking out there to create the illusion of the universe going south very quickly. Definitely an option but not a good one for the GA.

But yeah, thinking on it a bit that is certainly a viable option under Honor's demands.

Except the GA can't really force the League as a whole. Doing that would either create either a vengeful New League or drive large splinters of the former League into the welcoming arms of the Renaisance Factor.

pappilon wrote:So let whomever wants to bail just bail, and if everyone bails that's cool too? Causes problems, somewhat. Lots of security issues what with The Renaisance Factor and their own Case Buccaneer lurking out there to create the illusion of the universe going south very quickly. Definitely an option but not a good one for the GA.

But yeah, thinking on it a bit that is certainly a viable option under Honor's demands.

Slneezy wrote:Except the GA can't really force the League as a whole. Doing that would either create either a vengeful New League or drive large splinters of the former League into the welcoming arms of the Renaisance Factor.

Harrington's terms: Allow anyone wanting to secede from the old league to do so. New Constitution must also grant any member unequivocal right to secede also. That is not forcing anyone to do anything except to accept Beowulf's interpretation of the right to secede.

The GA can not force the league to adopt a new constitution , but Honor has made it crystal clear that all who choose to remain will be under threat of having their orbital infrastructure reduced to debris if they do not act. Which makes not acting ... pretty painful.

I think it'll be difficult for them to obtain reparations. Everything was done by the SL government. And since there is no direct taxation of member systems it is likely they'll argue that they are directly responsible for what occurred.

ywing14 wrote:I think it'll be difficult for them to obtain reparations. Everything was done by the SL government. And since there is no direct taxation of member systems it is likely they'll argue that they are directly responsible for what occurred.

No basis in fact or law for that statement. Can a new government rising from the ashes of the old government be held responsible for the debts and sins of ite predecessor? Quite possibly. Much depends on the text and interpretations of the new constitution. And on the size of the new league. League worlds attacked, if they remain in SL2.0 stand a good chance of recouping damages.

Also how much goodwill does the new league feel it wants and can afford? It may have no legal obligation to make reparations which may not alter its perceived moral obligation.

pappilon wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I think it'll be difficult for them to obtain reparations. Everything was done by the SL government. And since there is no direct taxation of member systems it is likely they'll argue that they are directly responsible for what occurred.

No basis in fact or law for that statement. Can a new government rising from the ashes of the old government be held responsible for the debts and sins of ite predecessor? Quite possibly. Much depends on the text and interpretations of the new constitution. And on the size of the new league. League worlds attacked, if they remain in SL2.0 stand a good chance of recouping damages.

Also how much goodwill does the new league feel it wants and can afford? It may have no legal obligation to make reparations which may not alter its perceived moral obligation.

Truth there is no basis, but historically reparations have lead to a resumption of hostilities. Additionally, when has the SL ever felt it was bound to follow any of the treaties or law in the books. They've violated it plenty of times. In truth most of the reparations they would owe would be to third party planets and not members of the GA. Does the GA press forward the claims of those worlds? What happened to Beowulf and Manticore was not the result of direct SLN action. I would push forward for reparations for what happened at New Tuscany. I agree that there are moral obligations to pay reparations. I'm just not sure how everything will shake out at the end of the day. I could see pushing for reparations as a way to get planets out of the SL2.0.

Reparations are just another war debt owed by the Solarian League. Just as their war bonds are debt, their other liabilities of which reparations are one of them are also war debts. The GA can assert reparations are essential to any peace treaty. The New League will have to ratify a peace treaty with the GA. No peace treaty, no peace.

I don't see any sort of plurality of the Core Worlds denying responsibility for the SLN destroying neutral star systems as just. If they do, it opens the GA using the same principle to destroy Core World's systems with impunity. Sure it will engender bad feelings. However, what system would court that sort of destruction when they could distribute the cost of repairing the orbital infrastructure of the 6 neutral worlds between 200-300 Core worlds or 2,000 member systems.


The other issue is that any ……..loose interpretation of legitimate debts and that would put at risk the debt owned by SLN citizens and transstellars. Better to incur slightly more debts per member system and secure the value of the bonds they already own. The cost to rebuild those systems is merely 0.2%-0.3% of the average SL system's GSP. Amortize that over 50 years in a bond issuance and the annual per system cost is not that bad at all. Certainly not bad enough that a member system would court having THEIR infrastructure destroyed. Heck, building the new navy will cost far more.


No, reparations will be assessed on and paid by the new Solarian League. The consequences will not be onerous spread across the entire League and the opportunity to gain from graft and insider dealing will be too great for those SL apparatchiks to resist sticking their snouts into.