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Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoilers?)

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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat May 26, 2018 2:21 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:
1. They have no idea Firebrand was captured

2. They have no idea Mesa is under new management

3.They are using a Solly transponder

4. Captured Mesan Navy Ships make deceptivly good Inspection Patrol Vessals stuffed with Manti/Haven Marines

Nimitz


Doesn't matter. If I were the MAlign I would make sure it can't get captured. In my book, all streak drive vessels would have a self destruct routine as part of their computercores, and as soon as that program decides the vessel was captured, it will go active. How it decides that that is the case? I would link it to the communication systems (both extern and intern), and as soon as it catches words like Manticore, Haven, Grand Alliance or surrender, probably in causal connection to each other ... boom!

The crew will most probably not even know that such a program exists.
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Sat May 26, 2018 3:11 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:
1. They have no idea Firebrand was captured

2. They have no idea Mesa is under new management

3.They are using a Solly transponder

4. Captured Mesan Navy Ships make deceptivly good Inspection Patrol Vessals stuffed with Manti/Haven Marines

Nimitz


Doesn't matter. If I were the MAlign I would make sure it can't get captured. In my book, all streak drive vessels would have a self destruct routine as part of their computercores, and as soon as that program decides the vessel was captured, it will go active. How it decides that that is the case? I would link it to the communication systems (both extern and intern), and as soon as it catches words like Manticore, Haven, Grand Alliance or surrender, probably in causal connection to each other ... boom!

The crew will most probably not even know that such a program exists.


At least you have a plan.

Not sure a key word self destruct would be advisable

Hello Darius Astro Control - Any word on Manticore?

"BOOM"

PS you are also assuming an EMP has not disabled your electronics or the guy that has the activation code can still remember it -Ala Torch

Nimitz
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by kzt   » Sat May 26, 2018 6:31 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:[

PS you are also assuming an EMP has not disabled your electronics or the guy that has the activation code can still remember it -Ala Torch

You don’t get EMP in deep space and missiles without radiation screens work reliably when there are 20,000 other warheads going of at roughly the same time.

And if it automatically works there is no need for a code.
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Sun May 27, 2018 11:29 am

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kzt wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:[

PS you are also assuming an EMP has not disabled your electronics or the guy that has the activation code can still remember it -Ala Torch

You don’t get EMP in deep space and missiles without radiation screens work reliably when there are 20,000 other warheads going of at roughly the same time.

And if it automatically works there is no need for a code.


There comes a time when dispatch boat and freighters just blowing up for no reason becomes a pattern and the Transtellers & Governments become of interest for GA Intel types.

The MA is going to need a new strategy.

Nimitz
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun May 27, 2018 11:44 pm

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kzt wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical about 100% koolaide drinking

I pointed out that self-destruct fuzes on modern ordinance had a failure rate ranging between a few percentage to >20% and asked why the MA wasn't going after missiles that missed at BoM. David said they ALL self-destructed. Not mostly, every single one functioned exactly 100% as planned.


Modern ordinance is mostly dumb stuff. There's no fancy computer in there that can set off the destruct.

All of the stuff that the MA would be interested in has a lot of computing power and a far greater incentive to actually make it work--nobody wants an Eridani violation because a missile that missed blundered into a planet.

Also, normally the military is concerned with making sure the destruct doesn't go off when it shouldn't. Missiles operate at high acceleration, it would be easy to make that acceleration physically arm the destruct mechanism. The link from the controller to the boom is obstructed by a 1 pound object that needs 1000 pounds of force to dislodge.
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun May 27, 2018 11:47 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:Really a MA ship crew with a pulser aimed at them is going to leave without direct orders from the GODs of MESA?

PS Regardless the Manti's have thier transponder code & Thier Homeport is MESA

Nimitz


Their orders will have a time limit.

And they'll leave on time no matter what the threat--remember, the suicide timers. To stay too long is certain death.
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Mon May 28, 2018 3:32 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Nimitz1923PD wrote:Really a MA ship crew with a pulser aimed at them is going to leave without direct orders from the GODs of MESA?

PS Regardless the Manti's have thier transponder code & Thier Homeport is MESA

Nimitz


Their orders will have a time limit.

And they'll leave on time no matter what the threat--remember, the suicide timers. To stay too long is certain death.


Unless that ship crew is part of the MA inner circle and know about Darius I doubt they even know about suicide timers

With the loss of Mesa thier suicide renewal has been canceled

It will be an interesting Manti investigation a whole ships crew which dropped dead within minutes of each other of "Natural Causes"

Nimitz
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by kzt   » Mon May 28, 2018 5:08 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Modern ordinance is mostly dumb stuff. There's no fancy computer in there that can set off the destruct.

All of the stuff that the MA would be interested in has a lot of computing power and a far greater incentive to actually make it work--nobody wants an Eridani violation because a missile that missed blundered into a planet.

Also, normally the military is concerned with making sure the destruct doesn't go off when it shouldn't. Missiles operate at high acceleration, it would be easy to make that acceleration physically arm the destruct mechanism. The link from the controller to the boom is obstructed by a 1 pound object that needs 1000 pounds of force to dislodge.

Simple systems have far less failure modes than complex systems. And far more predictable ones. The core problem is that you really, really don’t want your weapons detonating ‘unexpectedly’, so there a whole lot of safety systems designed to prevent that. And, since you are just as dead if the salvage fuse or the weapon end of run destruct charge functions in the launcher as you are if the primary fuse functions, you have these all locked out until some series of events transpired. Like say the drive starting and the missile accelerating at some large value for some number of seconds.

How many of the million or so missiles fired had a drive ring fail to initiate? Do you really think that number is zero?
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon May 28, 2018 10:41 pm

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Nimitz1923PD wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Their orders will have a time limit.

And they'll leave on time no matter what the threat--remember, the suicide timers. To stay too long is certain death.


Unless that ship crew is part of the MA inner circle and know about Darius I doubt they even know about suicide timers


They got rid of some of their low-level people on Mesa with the timers. While the average grunt doesn't need to know about them those running ships certainly need to--otherwise you would have ships lost due to captains making otherwise reasonable choices when they learned new information.

With the loss of Mesa thier suicide renewal has been canceled

It will be an interesting Manti investigation a whole ships crew which dropped dead within minutes of each other of "Natural Causes"

Nimitz


They already know of the natural causes deaths from Maya.
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Re: Felix junction, key aspect of the story (possible spoile
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon May 28, 2018 10:45 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Modern ordinance is mostly dumb stuff. There's no fancy computer in there that can set off the destruct.

All of the stuff that the MA would be interested in has a lot of computing power and a far greater incentive to actually make it work--nobody wants an Eridani violation because a missile that missed blundered into a planet.

Also, normally the military is concerned with making sure the destruct doesn't go off when it shouldn't. Missiles operate at high acceleration, it would be easy to make that acceleration physically arm the destruct mechanism. The link from the controller to the boom is obstructed by a 1 pound object that needs 1000 pounds of force to dislodge.

Simple systems have far less failure modes than complex systems. And far more predictable ones. The core problem is that you really, really don’t want your weapons detonating ‘unexpectedly’, so there a whole lot of safety systems designed to prevent that. And, since you are just as dead if the salvage fuse or the weapon end of run destruct charge functions in the launcher as you are if the primary fuse functions, you have these all locked out until some series of events transpired. Like say the drive starting and the missile accelerating at some large value for some number of seconds.

How many of the million or so missiles fired had a drive ring fail to initiate? Do you really think that number is zero?


The drives don't light in the tubes. Thus you can arm the destruct the instant the drive lights, no delay needed. If the drive doesn't light at all it's right near the ship and can be destroyed by a PD laser.

Besides, I think a missile that fails to light will destroy itself without even having a destruct. Missiles don't have a long flight life, how long will they contain that plasma they were provided at launch? If the power isn't used it will sit there and in time I suspect the containment will fail. Goodbye missile.
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