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Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction

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Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by BarryKirk   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:05 am

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Please let me know if this has been posted or talked about elsewhere in the forums.

I'm a little puzzled by the fact that in the Manticore Ascendant series, that the wormhole junction is unknown.

Here is the reason.

In a mainline Honorverse series book, I believe it was "At All Costs", one of the cores of the tactical situation was a resonance zone created by the wormhole junction.

Basically, it's known that large gravity sources, basically stars and planets create a hyper limit inside of which it's impossible to enter or exit or travel beyond the alpha wall. So, hyper space is off limits inside the hyper limit.

The wormhole junction also creates a hyper limit of it's own. And I think in "At All Costs", it was mentioned that the wormhole junction created a lobe that extended the hyperlimit of Manticore A and/or B in the direction of the junction.

So, given all of the hyperspace traffic going into/out of Manticore over the centuries, how is it possible that the resonance zone was not known even in the early years?

Sure, it may have been tricky to track down or pin down the exact number and locations of the actual wormholes, but there had to have been clues that something was out there.

Also, other wormholes were known in the time of the Manticore Ascendant series, so, I'm sure those created resonance zones. The phenomenon would have been understood.

And given the size of the resonance zone at Manticore, it was after all, the largest known junction in the galaxy during the mainline series, and given that it shouldn't have been too difficult to map out the overall outside envelope of the resonance zone. It should have been obvious to Manticore early on that they were sitting on something special.

So, how come by the end of the third book in the Call to series, they still have no clue why somebody keeps attacking them?
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by Duckk   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:12 am

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From part of an old infodump:

***

Now, as to your question about the Manticoran Wormhole Junction's resonance zone and why it didn't lead to an earlier discovery of the Junction.

First, bear in mind that wormhole junctions are always located far outside a star system's hyper limit. For example, the Manticoran Wormhole Junction is 412 light-minutes (yes, that's right, over seven light-hours) from Manticore A. The original survey of the system didn't even know that wormholes existed, and the original colonization ship was a reaction drive STL design with cryo facilities, not even hyper-capable. Thereafter, hyper-capable ships and impeller drive ships began making calls at Manticore, but until the discovery of the Wormhole Junction itself, Manticore was basically Iceland -- a fairly prosperous, well educated, sparsely populated star system located off to one side of the Haven Sector and without anything to suggest that it was going to become a commercial, shipping, and financial hub.

The very first wormhole was discovered in 1447. The Manticoran wormhole Junction was discovered about 140 years later, in 1585. It almost certainly would have been discovered sooner had the body of theory about wormholes been better developed. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and there are other "gravitic faults" which appear in areas where grav waves fold tightly together in hyper but not quite tightly enough to produce an actual wormhole. Such "faults" are, in fact, much more common than actual wormholes and their resonance zones. It's possible to differentiate between these "not quite wormhole" faults and the resonance zone associated with an actual wormhole . . . today. It wasn't possible in the early days of wormhole-hunting. In fact, the very power of the Manticoran RZ tended to work against anyone's thinking it was anything but another of those "gravitic faults," because the resonance zones associated with every then-known wormhole were so much weaker than the Manticoran resonance zone. It was completely outside the known profile given the currently available body of knowledge . . . which probably wasn't too surprising, since at that point wormhole theory said that no junction could have more than three termini. In other words, nobody in his right mind would have suggested the possibility of a monster the size of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, based on what was then known about wormholes in general. Nor, for that matter, did anybody outside the Manticoran Binary System give any particular thought to the Manticoran "gravitic fault," since there wasn't very much traffic through the region to begin with and aside from allowing for it when planning one's astrogation to or from the star system, it had no real significance to anyone.

(Please note that although "gravitic faults" are much more common than wormholes, that doesn't mean that there are bunches and bunches of them lying around. There are enough of them that they became well understood in terms of their problem potential for astrogation well before the first wormhole was discovered, and for people to basically say "Oh, there's another one," whenever a new one was encountered. The operable point here is simply that because they were a "known phenomenon" and because the resonance zones associated with any wormholes previously discovered were so much weaker than the Manticoran RZ, the "Oh, it's just another gravitic fault" school of thought kept anyone from considering the "Omigod! Maybe we've got the mother of all wormholes sitting out there!" school of thought.")

Eventually, of course, some bright lad (or lass, depending on how, if, and when I decide to write that particular story) in the Star Kingdom of Manticore did start wondering about just exactly why Manticore had such a powerful "gravitic fault." Even then, given the fact that all known resonance zones were so much weaker, the initial assumption was not that it indicated a wormhole junction. It was, however, enough to get the situation looked at by competent hyper physicists (which meant bringing them in from the outside, since the Star Kingdom at that point had no need, as far as it knew, for that sort of specialists), who then made a . . . rather remarkable discovery. And who were forced to come up with a radical revision of the then-current body of knowledge and theory as a consequence of their findings.

I thought about explaining all of this at the time (in At All Costs, which is the first place it really became relevant to the story line) but I'm trying to cut down on infodumps, and somehow I thought that a digression into a couple of hundred years of wormhole theory would have fallen under that heading.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by kzt   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:15 am

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I pointed out the zone of destruction as a clue to David a long time ago and his answer is ‘space is huge, and this is a long way from the inhabited planets.’ The other thing is info spreads slowly. Manticore is way out there.

And I’m ninja’d!
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by BarryKirk   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:48 am

BarryKirk
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Duckk wrote:From part of an old infodump:

***

Now, as to your question about the Manticoran Wormhole Junction's resonance zone and why it didn't lead to an earlier discovery of the Junction.

First, bear in mind that wormhole junctions are always located far outside a star system's hyper limit. For example, the Manticoran Wormhole Junction is 412 light-minutes (yes, that's right, over seven light-hours) from Manticore A. The original survey of the system didn't even know that wormholes existed, and the original colonization ship was a reaction drive STL design with cryo facilities, not even hyper-capable. Thereafter, hyper-capable ships and impeller drive ships began making calls at Manticore, but until the discovery of the Wormhole Junction itself, Manticore was basically Iceland -- a fairly prosperous, well educated, sparsely populated star system located off to one side of the Haven Sector and without anything to suggest that it was going to become a commercial, shipping, and financial hub.

The very first wormhole was discovered in 1447. The Manticoran wormhole Junction was discovered about 140 years later, in 1585. It almost certainly would have been discovered sooner had the body of theory about wormholes been better developed. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and there are other "gravitic faults" which appear in areas where grav waves fold tightly together in hyper but not quite tightly enough to produce an actual wormhole. Such "faults" are, in fact, much more common than actual wormholes and their resonance zones. It's possible to differentiate between these "not quite wormhole" faults and the resonance zone associated with an actual wormhole . . . today. It wasn't possible in the early days of wormhole-hunting. In fact, the very power of the Manticoran RZ tended to work against anyone's thinking it was anything but another of those "gravitic faults," because the resonance zones associated with every then-known wormhole were so much weaker than the Manticoran resonance zone. It was completely outside the known profile given the currently available body of knowledge . . . which probably wasn't too surprising, since at that point wormhole theory said that no junction could have more than three termini. In other words, nobody in his right mind would have suggested the possibility of a monster the size of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, based on what was then known about wormholes in general. Nor, for that matter, did anybody outside the Manticoran Binary System give any particular thought to the Manticoran "gravitic fault," since there wasn't very much traffic through the region to begin with and aside from allowing for it when planning one's astrogation to or from the star system, it had no real significance to anyone.

(Please note that although "gravitic faults" are much more common than wormholes, that doesn't mean that there are bunches and bunches of them lying around. There are enough of them that they became well understood in terms of their problem potential for astrogation well before the first wormhole was discovered, and for people to basically say "Oh, there's another one," whenever a new one was encountered. The operable point here is simply that because they were a "known phenomenon" and because the resonance zones associated with any wormholes previously discovered were so much weaker than the Manticoran RZ, the "Oh, it's just another gravitic fault" school of thought kept anyone from considering the "Omigod! Maybe we've got the mother of all wormholes sitting out there!" school of thought.")

Eventually, of course, some bright lad (or lass, depending on how, if, and when I decide to write that particular story) in the Star Kingdom of Manticore did start wondering about just exactly why Manticore had such a powerful "gravitic fault." Even then, given the fact that all known resonance zones were so much weaker, the initial assumption was not that it indicated a wormhole junction. It was, however, enough to get the situation looked at by competent hyper physicists (which meant bringing them in from the outside, since the Star Kingdom at that point had no need, as far as it knew, for that sort of specialists), who then made a . . . rather remarkable discovery. And who were forced to come up with a radical revision of the then-current body of knowledge and theory as a consequence of their findings.

I thought about explaining all of this at the time (in At All Costs, which is the first place it really became relevant to the story line) but I'm trying to cut down on infodumps, and somehow I thought that a digression into a couple of hundred years of wormhole theory would have fallen under that heading.


Thank you for clearing that up and tying up that loose end for me. Now it all makes sense.

Time to re-read the whole "Call to" series. :D
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by sonex   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:00 pm

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The infodump did not quite answer my questions about Hyperspace Travel. :geek:

Are there two means of travel through hyperspace:
1. Through a wormhole junction?
2. By entering outside the hyper limit?

Number one is apparently an almost instantaneous transit to the other end (as in the new wormhole at Torch).

Number two allows transit via some kind of astrogation to a selected exit via one or more legs (travel from Bolthole in Haven).

So the long times for travel to a far place is mostly non-hyper travel getting to and from worm holes? Like from Manticore to Spindle?

Thanks for any help on improving my understanding!

Bruce Harrington
Honor Harrington and Safehold nut.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by Joat42   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:28 pm

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sonex wrote:The infodump did not quite answer my questions about Hyperspace Travel. :geek:

Are there two means of travel through hyperspace:
1. Through a wormhole junction?
2. By entering outside the hyper limit?

Number one is apparently an almost instantaneous transit to the other end (as in the new wormhole at Torch).

Number two allows transit via some kind of astrogation to a selected exit via one or more legs (travel from Bolthole in Haven).

So the long times for travel to a far place is mostly non-hyper travel getting to and from worm holes? Like from Manticore to Spindle?

Thanks for any help on improving my understanding!

Bruce Harrington

Yes, there are 2 modes of hyperspace travel.

The time to travel is dependent on many factors but mainly distance. For short routes you can hyper the whole way but for longer ones you need to drop out of hyper and plot a new bearing. Some of this is due to the fact there are "obstacles" that are not passable through hyper; for example stars, grav waves etc.

Also, I don't know how accurate the hyperlogs are which would indicate the maximum safe distance to travel in hyper before a astrogator need to do a new plot from real space.

In essence it's just plotting a route with all modes of travel which are fastest and not necessarily the shortest.

More on hyperspace here and wormholes here.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:39 pm

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sonex wrote:So the long times for travel to a far place is mostly non-hyper travel getting to and from worm holes? Like from Manticore to Spindle?


In that specific example:

From Manticore to the MHWJ: Approx 12 to 24 hours in N-Space under impeller drive.

From MWJ to Lynx Terminus: Instantaneous under Warshawski Sail plus wait-time in the transit lane for other ships to transit ahead of you.

From Lynx Terminus to Spindle Hyper-limit: Several weeks in Hyper-space under Impeller Drive or Warshawski Sail in grav-waves. Exact time depends on Hyper-space band used and strength of available Grave Waves.

From Spindle Hyper-Limit to Spindle Orbit: Six to twelve hours under Impeller Drive.

In Shadow of Saganami, Helen Zilwiki has to compute a course from Lynx to Spindle when Hexapuma first deploys to the Talbott Quadrant. That scene covers all of the factors she had to consider.

Yes, there are 2 modes of hyperspace travel.


Actually, three: WH Transit, Normal Impeller Drive, and Grav Wave. All require a hyper generator, but WHs and GWs require Warshawski Sails (alpha nodes) and normal impeller drive between grav waves.
.
.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by Joat42   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:47 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Yes, there are 2 modes of hyperspace travel.


Actually, three: WH Transit, Normal Impeller Drive, and Grav Wave. All require a hyper generator, but WHs and GWs require Warshawski Sails (alpha nodes) and normal impeller drive between grav waves.

No, there are only 2 modes of hyperspace travel and several for sidereal space. Don't conflate them please since a hyperspace generator is totally unnecessary for sidereal travel.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by Theemile   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
Actually, three: WH Transit, Normal Impeller Drive, and Grav Wave. All require a hyper generator, but WHs and GWs require Warshawski Sails (alpha nodes) and normal impeller drive between grav waves.

No, there are only 2 modes of hyperspace travel and several for sidereal space. Don't conflate them please since a hyperspace generator is totally unnecessary for sidereal travel.


Actually he is correct, but mis-spoke.

1) Wormhole (requires sails)
2) Normal Hyper space (using impellers)
3) Hyper along a Grav wave (Requires sails)

Travel in normal space (N-space, sidereal) uses impellers, thrusters, spider drives, etc.
******
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Question about Wormhole Junction
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:49 pm

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This is all explained in excruciating detail in the section "The Universe of Honor Harrington" in the anthology "More than Honor."
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