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The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:07 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

cthia wrote:THE AUTHOR AND THE FAN: WHAT DO WE OWE EACH OTHER?

The only thing I've ever asked of the author, is that he allow me to detest any of his characters for any of the decisions they might make, without feeling it casts any aspersions on himself. And to let Honor live. The fact that an author writes characters with such realism and clarity is an amazing accomplishment that is his fault and not mine. If I'd've run into Ransom after stumbling into a wormhole while sailing the Bermuda Triangle, I'd've choked the stuffing out of the her royal heinous. If I'd run into Pavel Young, I'd've stolen Honor's arm, shoved it up Pavel's ass, then removed the safety protocols and let loose a round.


https://www.amazon.com/Exasperating-Dav ... miniatures

This book is appalling to me. Fans are just so trucking disrespectful nowadays.

What is our due? Are we due?

I do not envy today's author who butts his head up against the efficiency of the internet, forums, arrogant fans and fellow writers. As I said before, when authors graduated from the Old Remington typewriters to laptops and desktops and the marvel of today's technology, they probably didn't count on all that came with it in the small print, which may make them long again for the good old days of the Remington and the natural isolation those bygone days provided from uppity, arrogant fans like us. There was a time we were just damn glad to get the next installment. We were downright ecstatic there was a next installment. We didn't bother to fact check the author's calculations and check the results again thrice. All in the name of progress. We simply enjoyed the read. In the olden days, authors really were gods of their universe. Nowadays, the fans have become rebellious demons.

When did WE THE PEOPLE who buy books begin to think we own stock in the story?

How much does an author owe us?

Should he have to consult with NASA scientists, lawyers, engineers, mathematicians and an entire gamut of professionals before he can quill at will? Some certainly do and many works are monumental because of it. Yet, does the responsibility of the modern age of publishing in many genres hurt storyline and production? Many of us shed tears about the time between publishing. As fans, have we come to a point where we place too much unnecessary pressure on an author by our unrelenting demands and expectations on storyline? Yet as we cry and complain, we fail to see the ramifications of such an innocent crime of passion and pressure. I've had many people tell me...

"That isn't how Weber writes."

I don't think that's fair. To Weber, or to me.

"He would never do that!" (only to see it happen.)

How do we know, since the days of sitting back and enjoying the ride of an author's storytelling are long gone? Now, we want to drive and be the GPS too.

Case in point. After SOV was released, I was appalled at the sharpness of the pitchforks right on the author's own site. Had it been me, Id've closed up shop and never returned. To be fair, some of the anger was manifested by the marketing teams and false advertisements. But a few posters were very irritated with David's character of Damien Harahap. I pointed out that they should tread lightly until the next installment because they may end up eating crow. It seems like those crow recipes are in great demand as I predicted.

My heart breaks for people like my sisters, who cannot enjoy sci-fi because their overworked mind cannot let go to taste the story underneath the tech.

I simply love reading about kzt's angst and what he calls those awful Honorverse books, like At All Costs, that I happen to find magnificent. Don't misunderstand me. Not for a minute am I downplaying a reader's right to read with whatever convictions he carries and I oftentimes wonder, in kzt's case, if I am missing something, having a more forgivable slant toward storyline. Then there are times I am content with my less than strict adherence to the technical aspects of sci-fi. Not because of an inadequacy, but in light of personal choice of a more intimate relationship with storyline itself, as I see it. But that is a personal observation which is biased and subjective.

At the end of the day, what is owed between author and fan? I didn't get the memo.



Take a deep, deep breath, then exhale slowly. After that, try a shot of vodka. (BTW, I always thought hated vodka until a Polish fan introduced me to the good stuff. Trust me, that act of simple human kindness made up for a lot of bad reviews. :lol:)

Look, I have a plan in mind for a story when I sit down to write. Sometimes the story cooperates, sometimes (like my current project) not so much. Like any human being living in the real world, I sometimes find myself dealing with deadlines and time pressures — or health or family issues — which keep me from doing the very best work I could under more ideal circumstances, but I always, always try to give fair value for the reader's time.

I'm a storyteller. That's what I do. I'm not competing for literary prizes, although I probably wouldn't cry into my beer if someone decided to give me a raft or two of them. I don't sit around worrying myself into bleak, black depression because someone criticizes one of my stories. I do tend to get pissed off when someone decides to go off on the sort of rant which would get them punched in the mouth if they delivered it to someone in person. There's a special form of cowardice in safely anonymous — or at least electronically invulnerable — character assassination, whether it's of a person or a philosophy or a piece of fiction. That is on my list of insufferable actions by moral midgets with spaghetti spines and intellectual integrity to match. Not too fond of people who can't construct three consecutive sentences without obscenity, either, now that I think about it. But, as Sharon would say, "I digress."

For the rest of it, if you paid the ferryman by at least reading the book first, you are entitled to whatever opinion fits you best. I may not agree with it. I may think the opinion you've expressed indicates that you missed something that was pretty darned self-evident to me (and, of course, any alert reader :roll:) along the way. I may think that the opinion you've expressed is that of someone with . . . questionable judgment opining upon matters you know not of. But it's your opinion, you paid the intellectual coin for it, and it is therefore by definition valid, at least as opinion. If in expressing that opinion you have knowingly distorted or misquoted, all bets are off, of course.

Authors are as aware as readers that every hit is not a home run. Any honest writer will tell you there are books he'd like to have back so that he could fix something that got past him. Or that there's something in it that he's figured out how to do better with the passing of time. I have a whole big bunch of books out there. By definition that gives me more opportunities to have less-than-perfect books scattered amongst them.

I think that when people finish reading Uncompromising Honor, they will understand why Shadow of Victory was written the way it was. I will admit that I was dealing with serious health issues while I was working on that book, which had consequences I simply couldn't avoid. In fact, I was still dealing with them when I was simultaneously dealing with the final page proofs on both that book and At the Sign of Triumph. That was largely because of the concertina effect of getting both of them in late because of those health issues. I did mention that my doctor kicked me out of the office and ordered me to stay there for at least two months, didn't I? It was that kind of health issue.

I say this by way of explaining that there was, in fact, one thing I would've done differently in SoV if I'd had more time and I hadn't been graying out sitting in front of the computer. The one thing — the only thing — I would have done differently (and should have done differently), would have been to go ahead and give you the names of the various planetary institutions in Polish and Czech and use the appropriate acronyms for the planets' native languages, but then used the English translations in narrative, at the very least. Aside from that, that book did exactly what I needed it to do. It was, in fact, an essential building block for Uncompromising. Sometimes in an ongoing series, whether it's literary or television, there has to be a season or an episode which fulfills a necessary function for the overall story arc. In an ideal world, that doesn't cause potholes. Sometimes, however, it does. This, in fact, is the circumstance which produces the infamous "weak middle book of the trilogy" syndrome.

I don't pay much attention to the people who sharpen their quills on spite and dip their pens in vitriol. Anyone who has that kind of problem with a writer is probably responding to more than just their writing style or an occasional typo. And I don't let anyone but me shape where a story is going. I do take editorial input from my editors and publishers and I do my best to accommodate it in a way that works for them, for me, and — hopefully — for the reader. At the end of the day, though, it has to be my story, because storytelling is a very intimate activity. I could sell five million copies of a novel, and for every single reader, it's still a one-on-one experience, and that's important to me.

It's also why I love reader input, even when it comes in the form of complaints, as long as those complaints are delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy. I pay no attention at all to complaints which aren't delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy, because I consider the source. But I deeply value thoughtful commentary, even when it's pointing out a perceived weakness, and there have been occasions when discussing a story or a story line with fans has produced a synthesizing moment when I've suddenly realized there's a way to tweak what I already had in mind and make it better.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty much okay even with the loudmouth boneheads who really, really need their attitudes adjusted with a two-by-four. (What can I say? I'm a Southern boy who went to a country high school. :D ) I won't say I don't feel the momentary burn of anger — which, of course, is what a particularly loathsome variety of critic wants me to feel. But the two things that matter far more to me, when all's said and done, are that I'm satisfied with where I went and what I did and how well I accomplished my original goal, and that the readers who have come along with me for the long haul may have favorite books, may have least-favorite books, may have kzt's "awful books," may argue with me about ironclads and battleships, may pick holes in the physics, but they damned well cared enough about the characters to share the ride.

I can put up with an awful lot as long as I can look in the mirror and tell the man I see in it that both those things are true.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by pappilon   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:58 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:THE AUTHOR AND THE FAN: WHAT DO WE OWE EACH OTHER?

The only thing I've ever asked of the author, is that he allow me to detest any of his characters for any of the decisions they might make, without feeling it casts any aspersions on himself. And to let Honor live. The fact that an author writes characters with such realism and clarity is an amazing accomplishment that is his fault and not mine. If I'd've run into Ransom after stumbling into a wormhole while sailing the Bermuda Triangle, I'd've choked the stuffing out of the her royal heinous. If I'd run into Pavel Young, I'd've stolen Honor's arm, shoved it up Pavel's ass, then removed the safety protocols and let loose a round.


https://www.amazon.com/Exasperating-Dav ... miniatures

This book is appalling to me. Fans are just so trucking disrespectful nowadays.

What is our due? Are we due?

I do not envy today's author who butts his head up against the efficiency of the internet, forums, arrogant fans and fellow writers. As I said before, when authors graduated from the Old Remington typewriters to laptops and desktops and the marvel of today's technology, they probably didn't count on all that came with it in the small print, which may make them long again for the good old days of the Remington and the natural isolation those bygone days provided from uppity, arrogant fans like us. There was a time we were just damn glad to get the next installment. We were downright ecstatic there was a next installment. We didn't bother to fact check the author's calculations and check the results again thrice. All in the name of progress. We simply enjoyed the read. In the olden days, authors really were gods of their universe. Nowadays, the fans have become rebellious demons.

When did WE THE PEOPLE who buy books begin to think we own stock in the story?

How much does an author owe us?

Should he have to consult with NASA scientists, lawyers, engineers, mathematicians and an entire gamut of professionals before he can quill at will? Some certainly do and many works are monumental because of it. Yet, does the responsibility of the modern age of publishing in many genres hurt storyline and production? Many of us shed tears about the time between publishing. As fans, have we come to a point where we place too much unnecessary pressure on an author by our unrelenting demands and expectations on storyline? Yet as we cry and complain, we fail to see the ramifications of such an innocent crime of passion and pressure. I've had many people tell me...

"That isn't how Weber writes."

I don't think that's fair. To Weber, or to me.

"He would never do that!" (only to see it happen.)

How do we know, since the days of sitting back and enjoying the ride of an author's storytelling are long gone? Now, we want to drive and be the GPS too.

Case in point. After SOV was released, I was appalled at the sharpness of the pitchforks right on the author's own site. Had it been me, Id've closed up shop and never returned. To be fair, some of the anger was manifested by the marketing teams and false advertisements. But a few posters were very irritated with David's character of Damien Harahap. I pointed out that they should tread lightly until the next installment because they may end up eating crow. It seems like those crow recipes are in great demand as I predicted.

My heart breaks for people like my sisters, who cannot enjoy sci-fi because their overworked mind cannot let go to taste the story underneath the tech.

I simply love reading about kzt's angst and what he calls those awful Honorverse books, like At All Costs, that I happen to find magnificent. Don't misunderstand me. Not for a minute am I downplaying a reader's right to read with whatever convictions he carries and I oftentimes wonder, in kzt's case, if I am missing something, having a more forgivable slant toward storyline. Then there are times I am content with my less than strict adherence to the technical aspects of sci-fi. Not because of an inadequacy, but in light of personal choice of a more intimate relationship with storyline itself, as I see it. But that is a personal observation which is biased and subjective.

At the end of the day, what is owed between author and fan? I didn't get the memo.



Take a deep, deep breath, then exhale slowly. After that, try a shot of vodka. (BTW, I always thought hated vodka until a Polish fan introduced me to the good stuff. Trust me, that act of simple human kindness made up for a lot of bad reviews. :lol:)

Look, I have a plan in mind for a story when I sit down to write. Sometimes the story cooperates, sometimes (like my current project) not so much. Like any human being living in the real world, I sometimes find myself dealing with deadlines and time pressures — or health or family issues — which keep me from doing the very best work I could under more ideal circumstances, but I always, always try to give fair value for the reader's time.

I'm a storyteller. That's what I do. I'm not competing for literary prizes, although I probably wouldn't cry into my beer if someone decided to give me a raft or two of them. I don't sit around worrying myself into bleak, black depression because someone criticizes one of my stories. I do tend to get pissed off when someone decides to go off on the sort of rant which would get them punched in the mouth if they delivered it to someone in person. There's a special form of cowardice in safely anonymous — or at least electronically invulnerable — character assassination, whether it's of a person or a philosophy or a piece of fiction. That is on my list of insufferable actions by moral midgets with spaghetti spines and intellectual integrity to match. Not too fond of people who can't construct three consecutive sentences without obscenity, either, now that I think about it. But, as Sharon would say, "I digress."

For the rest of it, if you paid the ferryman by at least reading the book first, you are entitled to whatever opinion fits you best. I may not agree with it. I may think the opinion you've expressed indicates that you missed something that was pretty darned self-evident to me (and, of course, any alert reader :roll:) along the way. I may think that the opinion you've expressed is that of someone with . . . questionable judgment opining upon matters you know not of. But it's your opinion, you paid the intellectual coin for it, and it is therefore by definition valid, at least as opinion. If in expressing that opinion you have knowingly distorted or misquoted, all bets are off, of course.

Authors are as aware as readers that every hit is not a home run. Any honest writer will tell you there are books he'd like to have back so that he could fix something that got past him. Or that there's something in it that he's figured out how to do better with the passing of time. I have a whole big bunch of books out there. By definition that gives me more opportunities to have less-than-perfect books scattered amongst them.

I think that when people finish reading Uncompromising Honor, they will understand why Shadow of Victory was written the way it was. I will admit that I was dealing with serious health issues while I was working on that book, which had consequences I simply couldn't avoid. In fact, I was still dealing with them when I was simultaneously dealing with the final page proofs on both that book and At the Sign of Triumph. That was largely because of the concertina effect of getting both of them in late because of those health issues. I did mention that my doctor kicked me out of the office and ordered me to stay there for at least two months, didn't I? It was that kind of health issue.

I say this by way of explaining that there was, in fact, one thing I would've done differently in SoV if I'd had more time and I hadn't been graying out sitting in front of the computer. The one thing — the only thing — I would have done differently (and should have done differently), would have been to go ahead and give you the names of the various planetary institutions in Polish and Czech and use the appropriate acronyms for the planets' native languages, but then used the English translations in narrative, at the very least. Aside from that, that book did exactly what I needed it to do. It was, in fact, an essential building block for Uncompromising. Sometimes in an ongoing series, whether it's literary or television, there has to be a season or an episode which fulfills a necessary function for the overall story arc. In an ideal world, that doesn't cause potholes. Sometimes, however, it does. This, in fact, is the circumstance which produces the infamous "weak middle book of the trilogy" syndrome.

I don't pay much attention to the people who sharpen their quills on spite and dip their pens in vitriol. Anyone who has that kind of problem with a writer is probably responding to more than just their writing style or an occasional typo. And I don't let anyone but me shape where a story is going. I do take editorial input from my editors and publishers and I do my best to accommodate it in a way that works for them, for me, and — hopefully — for the reader. At the end of the day, though, it has to be my story, because storytelling is a very intimate activity. I could sell five million copies of a novel, and for every single reader, it's still a one-on-one experience, and that's important to me.

It's also why I love reader input, even when it comes in the form of complaints, as long as those complaints are delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy. I pay no attention at all to complaints which aren't delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy, because I consider the source. But I deeply value thoughtful commentary, even when it's pointing out a perceived weakness, and there have been occasions when discussing a story or a story line with fans has produced a synthesizing moment when I've suddenly realized there's a way to tweak what I already had in mind and make it better.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty much okay even with the loudmouth boneheads who really, really need their attitudes adjusted with a two-by-four. (What can I say? I'm a Southern boy who went to a country high school. :D ) I won't say I don't feel the momentary burn of anger — which, of course, is what a particularly loathsome variety of critic wants me to feel. But the two things that matter far more to me, when all's said and done, are that I'm satisfied with where I went and what I did and how well I accomplished my original goal, and that the readers who have come along with me for the long haul may have favorite books, may have least-favorite books, may have kzt's "awful books," may argue with me about ironclads and battleships, may pick holes in the physics, but they damned well cared enough about the characters to share the ride.

I can put up with an awful lot as long as I can look in the mirror and tell the man I see in it that both those things are true.


You responsibility is to do your duty to the best of your ability [at that moment].

The outcome is not your responsibility.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by Daryl   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:02 am

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3488
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

We all make our own way in the world, and the only thing we owe each other is civility or politeness.
Fans are responsible to pay their share by means of the books' purchase price, and if they participate in these forums to do so respectfully. I flinched when reading how RFC felt about people picking holes in his physics, as I had sort of done so, particularly in regard to relativity and energy conservation. But then reflected that I had pointed out how those as far ago as the Honorverse is ahead of us had very different views on natural laws than we do.
Authors who want to be successful owe us two things, to be good storytellers and to be consistent. RFC has excelled on both counts. I read widely, have many authors that I enjoy, but RFC is my favourite overall. I do have a close field just below him and it's funny how many of those collaborate, people like Eric Flint, Steve Stirling, Jim Butcher, John Ringo, and Harry Turtledove.
Incidentally Flint didn't break the Honorverse, he enhanced it and saved Honor into the bargain.
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by filbert   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:10 am

filbert
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:32 pm

Daryl wrote:We all make our own way in the world, and the only thing we owe each other is civility or politeness.
Fans are responsible to pay their share by means of the books' purchase price, and if they participate in these forums to do so respectfully. I flinched when reading how RFC felt about people picking holes in his physics, as I had sort of done so, particularly in regard to relativity and energy conservation. But then reflected that I had pointed out how those as far ago as the Honorverse is ahead of us had very different views on natural laws than we do.
Authors who want to be successful owe us two things, to be good storytellers and to be consistent. RFC has excelled on both counts. I read widely, have many authors that I enjoy, but RFC is my favourite overall. I do have a close field just below him and it's funny how many of those collaborate, people like Eric Flint, Steve Stirling, Jim Butcher, John Ringo, and Harry Turtledove.
Incidentally Flint didn't break the Honorverse, he enhanced it and saved Honor into the bargain.

The "broke" in my previous comment should have been accompanied by scare quotes if not a smiley or two.

We regret the error. :o
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:37 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:THE AUTHOR AND THE FAN: WHAT DO WE OWE EACH OTHER?

The only thing I've ever asked of the author, is that he allow me to detest any of his characters for any of the decisions they might make, without feeling it casts any aspersions on himself. And to let Honor live. The fact that an author writes characters with such realism and clarity is an amazing accomplishment that is his fault and not mine. If I'd've run into Ransom after stumbling into a wormhole while sailing the Bermuda Triangle, I'd've choked the stuffing out of the her royal heinous. If I'd run into Pavel Young, I'd've stolen Honor's arm, shoved it up Pavel's ass, then removed the safety protocols and let loose a round.


https://www.amazon.com/Exasperating-Dav ... miniatures

This book is appalling to me. Fans are just so trucking disrespectful nowadays.

What is our due? Are we due?

I do not envy today's author who butts his head up against the efficiency of the internet, forums, arrogant fans and fellow writers. As I said before, when authors graduated from the Old Remington typewriters to laptops and desktops and the marvel of today's technology, they probably didn't count on all that came with it in the small print, which may make them long again for the good old days of the Remington and the natural isolation those bygone days provided from uppity, arrogant fans like us. There was a time we were just damn glad to get the next installment. We were downright ecstatic there was a next installment. We didn't bother to fact check the author's calculations and check the results again thrice. All in the name of progress. We simply enjoyed the read. In the olden days, authors really were gods of their universe. Nowadays, the fans have become rebellious demons.

When did WE THE PEOPLE who buy books begin to think we own stock in the story?

How much does an author owe us?

Should he have to consult with NASA scientists, lawyers, engineers, mathematicians and an entire gamut of professionals before he can quill at will? Some certainly do and many works are monumental because of it. Yet, does the responsibility of the modern age of publishing in many genres hurt storyline and production? Many of us shed tears about the time between publishing. As fans, have we come to a point where we place too much unnecessary pressure on an author by our unrelenting demands and expectations on storyline? Yet as we cry and complain, we fail to see the ramifications of such an innocent crime of passion and pressure. I've had many people tell me...

"That isn't how Weber writes."

I don't think that's fair. To Weber, or to me.

"He would never do that!" (only to see it happen.)

How do we know, since the days of sitting back and enjoying the ride of an author's storytelling are long gone? Now, we want to drive and be the GPS too.

Case in point. After SOV was released, I was appalled at the sharpness of the pitchforks right on the author's own site. Had it been me, Id've closed up shop and never returned. To be fair, some of the anger was manifested by the marketing teams and false advertisements. But a few posters were very irritated with David's character of Damien Harahap. I pointed out that they should tread lightly until the next installment because they may end up eating crow. It seems like those crow recipes are in great demand as I predicted.

My heart breaks for people like my sisters, who cannot enjoy sci-fi because their overworked mind cannot let go to taste the story underneath the tech.

I simply love reading about kzt's angst and what he calls those awful Honorverse books, like At All Costs, that I happen to find magnificent. Don't misunderstand me. Not for a minute am I downplaying a reader's right to read with whatever convictions he carries and I oftentimes wonder, in kzt's case, if I am missing something, having a more forgivable slant toward storyline. Then there are times I am content with my less than strict adherence to the technical aspects of sci-fi. Not because of an inadequacy, but in light of personal choice of a more intimate relationship with storyline itself, as I see it. But that is a personal observation which is biased and subjective.

At the end of the day, what is owed between author and fan? I didn't get the memo.



Take a deep, deep breath, then exhale slowly. After that, try a shot of vodka. (BTW, I always thought hated vodka until a Polish fan introduced me to the good stuff. Trust me, that act of simple human kindness made up for a lot of bad reviews. :lol:)

Look, I have a plan in mind for a story when I sit down to write. Sometimes the story cooperates, sometimes (like my current project) not so much. Like any human being living in the real world, I sometimes find myself dealing with deadlines and time pressures — or health or family issues — which keep me from doing the very best work I could under more ideal circumstances, but I always, always try to give fair value for the reader's time.

I'm a storyteller. That's what I do. I'm not competing for literary prizes, although I probably wouldn't cry into my beer if someone decided to give me a raft or two of them. I don't sit around worrying myself into bleak, black depression because someone criticizes one of my stories. I do tend to get pissed off when someone decides to go off on the sort of rant which would get them punched in the mouth if they delivered it to someone in person. There's a special form of cowardice in safely anonymous — or at least electronically invulnerable — character assassination, whether it's of a person or a philosophy or a piece of fiction. That is on my list of insufferable actions by moral midgets with spaghetti spines and intellectual integrity to match. Not too fond of people who can't construct three consecutive sentences without obscenity, either, now that I think about it. But, as Sharon would say, "I digress."

For the rest of it, if you paid the ferryman by at least reading the book first, you are entitled to whatever opinion fits you best. I may not agree with it. I may think the opinion you've expressed indicates that you missed something that was pretty darned self-evident to me (and, of course, any alert reader :roll:) along the way. I may think that the opinion you've expressed is that of someone with . . . questionable judgment opining upon matters you know not of. But it's your opinion, you paid the intellectual coin for it, and it is therefore by definition valid, at least as opinion. If in expressing that opinion you have knowingly distorted or misquoted, all bets are off, of course.

Authors are as aware as readers that every hit is not a home run. Any honest writer will tell you there are books he'd like to have back so that he could fix something that got past him. Or that there's something in it that he's figured out how to do better with the passing of time. I have a whole big bunch of books out there. By definition that gives me more opportunities to have less-than-perfect books scattered amongst them.

I think that when people finish reading Uncompromising Honor, they will understand why Shadow of Victory was written the way it was. I will admit that I was dealing with serious health issues while I was working on that book, which had consequences I simply couldn't avoid. In fact, I was still dealing with them when I was simultaneously dealing with the final page proofs on both that book and At the Sign of Triumph. That was largely because of the concertina effect of getting both of them in late because of those health issues. I did mention that my doctor kicked me out of the office and ordered me to stay there for at least two months, didn't I? It was that kind of health issue.

I say this by way of explaining that there was, in fact, one thing I would've done differently in SoV if I'd had more time and I hadn't been graying out sitting in front of the computer. The one thing — the only thing — I would have done differently (and should have done differently), would have been to go ahead and give you the names of the various planetary institutions in Polish and Czech and use the appropriate acronyms for the planets' native languages, but then used the English translations in narrative, at the very least. Aside from that, that book did exactly what I needed it to do. It was, in fact, an essential building block for Uncompromising. Sometimes in an ongoing series, whether it's literary or television, there has to be a season or an episode which fulfills a necessary function for the overall story arc. In an ideal world, that doesn't cause potholes. Sometimes, however, it does. This, in fact, is the circumstance which produces the infamous "weak middle book of the trilogy" syndrome.

I don't pay much attention to the people who sharpen their quills on spite and dip their pens in vitriol. Anyone who has that kind of problem with a writer is probably responding to more than just their writing style or an occasional typo. And I don't let anyone but me shape where a story is going. I do take editorial input from my editors and publishers and I do my best to accommodate it in a way that works for them, for me, and — hopefully — for the reader. At the end of the day, though, it has to be my story, because storytelling is a very intimate activity. I could sell five million copies of a novel, and for every single reader, it's still a one-on-one experience, and that's important to me.

It's also why I love reader input, even when it comes in the form of complaints, as long as those complaints are delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy. I pay no attention at all to complaints which aren't delivered with at least a modicum of courtesy, because I consider the source. But I deeply value thoughtful commentary, even when it's pointing out a perceived weakness, and there have been occasions when discussing a story or a story line with fans has produced a synthesizing moment when I've suddenly realized there's a way to tweak what I already had in mind and make it better.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty much okay even with the loudmouth boneheads who really, really need their attitudes adjusted with a two-by-four. (What can I say? I'm a Southern boy who went to a country high school. :D ) I won't say I don't feel the momentary burn of anger — which, of course, is what a particularly loathsome variety of critic wants me to feel. But the two things that matter far more to me, when all's said and done, are that I'm satisfied with where I went and what I did and how well I accomplished my original goal, and that the readers who have come along with me for the long haul may have favorite books, may have least-favorite books, may have kzt's "awful books," may argue with me about ironclads and battleships, may pick holes in the physics, but they damned well cared enough about the characters to share the ride.

I can put up with an awful lot as long as I can look in the mirror and tell the man I see in it that both those things are true.


Thanks for the post RFC. I'm a southern boy as well, but taking a few deep breaths is simply not going to prepare me for vodka. LOL

I have a sister that loves the stuff. I will drink a glass of her vodka martini. One glass only. But never simply chilled like she likes it.

I hesitate saying that an author's book was bad, or accept anyone else's similar critique. I feel the same towards movies as well, but the Siskell & Eberts of the world can't possibly get it right for everyone. I only trust my own sense of a good read and what floats my boat. So, I'll rarely badmouth an author's works. I will hate that he killed off a particular character or characters, though. :D

The hindsight measures regarding the Polish names in SOV may have worked well for many readers. But I like it the way it is. The names didn't confuse me or hinder my reading at all. I think it comes from my being well traveled and being exposed to many languages and accents. One tends to develop an ear for these things. This became apparent to me my freshman year in college where many of the engineering professors were foreigners with accents that were very difficult for many students to understand. I understood them quite well; putting paid to the veracity of my parents' claim that worldly travel affords an education not found in textbooks.

I simply wish you and your family a long and healthy existence and hope that you continue to enjoy writing.

It's good that it pays the bills, but enjoying what pays the bills is priceless.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by Fireflair   » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:32 pm

Fireflair
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Posts: 588
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Thank you for the feedback, RFC!

For myself I don't generally pick at a story. I accept what the author wrote, generally. I don't normally pick up an author who writes poorly, screws up serious plot points, has glaring errors in their story. I've seen plenty of those over the decades I've been reading and I've learned to be more discerning in my reading choices so that I don't get irritated over authors who loose track of people they've killed off or how they suddenly throw some dues ex in to the plot.

Similarly, I don't pick at the science, especially in a series as complicated as the Honorverse. One, it's RFC's universe, he can do whatever handwavium he wishes to. Two, if he misplaces a decimal point or zero in his calculations of missile accel or something, I'm quite certain I'll survive the mistake. I'm here fort he story, not to point out some technical and ultimately minor mistake.

The only part that aggravated me about SoV was NOT RFC's doing but the advertising and media guru's fault. They advertised SoV as being Honor facing down the bad guys and some sort of direct involvement with the MAlign when in fact there was nothing of the sort.

So, false advertising, which I do not blame the author for.
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:01 am

kzt
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Location: Albuquerque, NM

There are authors whose books I have thrown against a wall. There are others authors whose book I have set down half done and never ever picked it up again (GRRM, I’m looking at you) because I just stopped caring about the characters. Other people like those books.

Authors owe the people who buy their books the most entertaining and self-consistent story they can deliver in the time they have to write it.

There are several books in a series I’m a fan of that I think would have been greatly improved by a much more aggressive edit. But that takes time that wasn’t possible. (My suspicion is that at least once getting the book out with less editing than I’d have wanted kept Baen afloat.) And I’d rather have the book then not have the book, even if it does feature secondary characters who mysteriously teleport across the galaxy between scenes,

As far as what the fans owe the author: Money, don’t steal their work. Actually read it before criticizing it. Be fair. Don’t make stuff up to criticize them over.
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by pappilon   » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:49 am

pappilon
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Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

kzt wrote:There are authors whose books I have thrown against a wall. There are others authors whose book I have set down half done and never ever picked it up again (GRRM, I’m looking at you) because I just stopped caring about the characters. Other people like those books.

Authors owe the people who buy their books the most entertaining and self-consistent story they can deliver in the time they have to write it.

There are several books in a series I’m a fan of that I think would have been greatly improved by a much more aggressive edit. But that takes time that wasn’t possible. (My suspicion is that at least once getting the book out with less editing than I’d have wanted kept Baen afloat.) And I’d rather have the book then not have the book, even if it does feature secondary characters who mysteriously teleport across the galaxy between scenes,

As far as what the fans owe the author: Money, don’t steal their work. Actually read it before criticizing it. Be fair. Don’t make stuff up to criticize them over.


Here, here! Only adding: pleeeze keep yer unreasonable expectations to yourself. If the book didn't go where you wanted it to go, that's your unreasonable expectation.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:00 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

kzt wrote:There are authors whose books I have thrown against a wall. There are others authors whose book I have set down half done and never ever picked it up again (GRRM, I’m looking at you) because I just stopped caring about the characters. Other people like those books.

Authors owe the people who buy their books the most entertaining and self-consistent story they can deliver in the time they have to write it.

There are several books in a series I’m a fan of that I think would have been greatly improved by a much more aggressive edit. But that takes time that wasn’t possible. (My suspicion is that at least once getting the book out with less editing than I’d have wanted kept Baen afloat.) And I’d rather have the book then not have the book, even if it does feature secondary characters who mysteriously teleport across the galaxy between scenes,

As far as what the fans owe the author: Money, don’t steal their work. Actually read it before criticizing it. Be fair. Don’t make stuff up to criticize them over.


:raises hand:

Are legal thefts ok? I began my foray into the World of Weber on a whim. I purchased the original hardback publishing of OBS, the one with the hideous picture of Nimitz on the cover, for $5 at a sidewalk sale. I consider that a real steal!

And I'll admit it in a court of law. Clutching my copy tightly!

The only way you'll get it Coppers, is if you pry it from my cold clammy claws!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Author and the Fan: What do we owe each other?
Post by pappilon   » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:16 pm

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:There are authors whose books I have thrown against a wall. There are others authors whose book I have set down half done and never ever picked it up again (GRRM, I’m looking at you) because I just stopped caring about the characters. Other people like those books.

Authors owe the people who buy their books the most entertaining and self-consistent story they can deliver in the time they have to write it.

There are several books in a series I’m a fan of that I think would have been greatly improved by a much more aggressive edit. But that takes time that wasn’t possible. (My suspicion is that at least once getting the book out with less editing than I’d have wanted kept Baen afloat.) And I’d rather have the book then not have the book, even if it does feature secondary characters who mysteriously teleport across the galaxy between scenes,

As far as what the fans owe the author: Money, don’t steal their work. Actually read it before criticizing it. Be fair. Don’t make stuff up to criticize them over.


:raises hand:

Are legal thefts ok? I began my foray into the World of Weber on a whim. I purchased the original hardback publishing of OBS, the one with the hideous picture of Nimitz on the cover, for $5 at a sidewalk sale. I consider that a real steal!

And I'll admit it in a court of law. Clutching my copy tightly!

The only way you'll get it Coppers, is if you pry it from my cold clammy claws!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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