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Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS

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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:50 am

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Armed Neo-Bob - You make good points about courtesy titles. I don't recall actually seeing them used at this earlier stage in the Star Kingdom's life, though. I don't think Travis being Winterfall's heir is very likely, but it is an intriguing possibility that hasn't quite been ruled out.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:11 am

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Randomiser wrote:SNIP

My heir comment was partly mischievous, but my reasoning was along your lines. The family background is vague, no mention of grandfathers or of whether Melisande's first marriage ended in divorce or with the death of her husband. It would be unusual for a woman to hang on to the name of her first husband once she married again, so Vellacott reads more naturally as her maiden name.


SNIP
Today, there are a lot of divorces. In the more traditional past, when women were more often widowed, they kept their married names in lieu of their maiden names--particularly if there were children. And, in Melisande's case, also because the Vellacotts are a more prestigious family, being her husband was a Baron.

Lines of succession are by heirs of the body, so if Gavin is the second Baron, and his name is Vellacott, then his mother just married up. ;)


Rob
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:56 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Spoilers

I've never viewed it as particularly ambiguous that Travis is NOT Gavin's heir, or even a member of the aristocracy per se. The aristocracy has been around for a while now--Roger I, Elizabeth I, Michael, Edward I-- and the forms were taken from someone's favorite historical fantasy. So the usages of courtesy titles would have had time to settle into place.

If his mother had a title, as a younger son, he would have been "the Honorable" Travis Long; if he was actually the Winterfell heir, he would have had the courtesy tile of "Lord" Long. There have been any number of people in the series like that. Scotty Tremaine's chief of staff is an Honorable; Mike Henke was an Honorable until she inherited because both her father and brother died. Pavel Young was Captain Lord Young until he inherited the title, while his younger brother, Stefan, was an Honorable--until Pavel inherited North Hollow, and Stefan became "Lord" Young.

As far as having something on the Wintons? You are reading too much into it. Michael retired for health reasons (like, old age :D ); Breakwater was kept, in spite of his empire building, because he did an excellent job as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Manticore was still recovering from the Plague years, and resources were slim. The problem Edward had, was, no one else available was as good at the job as Breakwater.

It is an interesting difference that later the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the number two member of the PM's party (i.e., Baroness Mourncreek would take over the PM's job if something happened to Willie Alexander). That is obviously not the case yet.

Regards,
Rob


No, the Manticoran nobility system seems to be lifted almost directly from the English and Welsh system - unlike in Elizabeth Moon's Familias Regnant, there's no hint that they've lifted it from a novel. The titles and styling (but not the constitutional role) seems to have been lifted straight out of the history books.

Travis, as the grandson of a Baron (if he is) would have no courtesy title whatsoever. The sons and daughters of Dukes and Marquisses are 'Lord' or 'Lady', the sons and daughters of Earls and Barons are 'The Honourable'. It's Melisande's full formal styling that we have to watch for. - and you can choose to not use courtesy titles. ;)

The courtesy title that the heir apparent uses is a title already in the parent's possession. For example, we know that by Sinead's time, Winterfall has become a dukedom. They wouldn't have lost the Barony in that promotion. The heir to the dukedom would be Lord or Lady Winterfall - unless the Winterfalls picked up a Marqisate or an Earldom on their way up the noble tree.

Heirs presumptive (a brother who would give way if Gavin had a child) would never use the courtesy title.

I'm basing my suspicion that Breakwater had something on the Wintons (or on Burgundy) on the point that is frequently made in the books - that there have been two entirely constitutional occasions that Breakwater could have been reshuffled, and each time, the brand new monarch is advised against. Each time, the brand new Monarch discovers that this is bad advice.

It may be that we discover in the next book that Breakwater is more dangerous out of office than in, but normally, keeping a political enemy in the office of Chancellor is a sign of weakness. Likewise, Michael effectively tells Edward that he's been painted into a political corner, and breaks the logjam with his unexpected abdication. If it's his health, he still seems quite capable of giving good advice two years later.
Last edited by Bluesqueak on Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:21 am

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Incidentally, we know that by Honor's time, Michelle Henke is considered fifth in line even though her non-Winton parent was noble.

So I'd guess that Elizabeth's constitutional amendment is going to make it clear that the requirement to marry a commoner applies only to the Crown Prince(ss). And that the line of succession is through the Winton line, no matter who they marry.

If you inherit without ever having been Crown Prince(ss), you were never under the requirement to marry a commoner.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:22 am

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isaac_newton wrote:Well - I just got my copy yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it :-)

I really do like that feeling of horizons opening out again, that you get at the begining of an arc of stories.

in Safehold and the mainline Honor stories we are coming to the end of a cycle, and sort of know how things will go and what must be addressed, but here, as in OBA, or OAR, there is such a sense of possibilities. - Much as when Captain Clegg realises that she is retting the template for remote deployment and what that means.

Yet there is also familiar things - places and names we already know - and then Haven being among the good guys!

I had the feeling that this book was going to eb the end of that series, but - I'm v glad to see - that there almost certainly will be more to come!


in his About the Schedule post RFC wrote:Next next next project (probably concurrent with the fantasy novel); sequel to A Call to Vengeance. (There are supposed to be at least four more books in this series.)


So lots of fun ahead!
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by HungryKing   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:53 am

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I have been toying with posting this, but does anyone else think that there is a faint possibility Travis is going to live to see Ad Astra commission, or even talk to Edward Saganami? I even have this bizarre idea that Saganami's class is going to receive a 'First View', delivered by Travis as the last living officer who was present at the Battle of Manticore, and then watch the commissioning of Ad Astra and that somehow Travis and Saganami take the same shuttle back to Manticore and that Travis dies right before the shuttle enters thick atmosphere.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Peter2   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:18 am

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There is always the possibility that the Winterfall line continues through Gavin, and Travis provides such sterling service to the Crown that he is ennobled independently for his own deeds. I shall have to go back through the Honorverse oevre and do some speculating on the possiblities . . . :geek: :geek: ;)
.
Last edited by Peter2 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:00 pm

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Hi TheEmile,

You make some excellent points, as do the others.

Travis needs to see the big picture before he gets his independent command, which a staff position under Locatelli, where he can get that big picture, and get more politically aware, which a commander evidently needs to have, as part of his polishing and preparation.

Of course Lisa needs some polishing too, and a staff turn in some other navy department would suit newlyweds very well. 8-)

One of the advantages of a staff turn could be SIS borrowing Travis when something really unusual came up, but Locatelli should already want to meet and personally evaluate this guy who's saved his ship and the empire 3 or 4 times already.

Unless there is a new regulation book where Travis can learn more about interpersonal relationships, Lisa will need all the help she can get.

OTOH, being on the Admiral's staff should bolster his self confidence and help him develop the interpersonal relationships officers need to properly function.

I suspect the next book will deal with upgrading the RMN and MPARS etc, probably with a special defense tax [4-5%?] and include a trip to the Free Duchy of Barca (probably in a Havenite freighter) to find out more of who and why they're involved.

The improved warships could include freighter 'Q' ships, that may operate as ore ship/MPARS to watch for low signature hyper entries way out there, as well as mouse trapping anyone passing the hyper limit, NTM providing more room for training more RMN/MPARS crewmen.

Definitely very interesting times, indeed.

L


Theemile wrote:
n7axw wrote:quote="Randomiser"Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


Your comment about Gavin seems on target. I do wonder, though. I suspect that it isn't so much that Breakwater's
manipulating is ok for Gavin as it is that he has been tolerating it for the sake of his own career. The situation with the queen is simply the straw that breaks the camel's back on frustration that has been building all along... I wonder how that will translate over into other contexts in the future.

As for Travis, his penchant for enforcing rules is well known. But on the other side his superiors seem to respect both his commitment and the quality of his work... including Clegg who really doesn't like him all that well.

I predict that Lisa is going to be a major influence in mellowing out Travis and helping him past the shyness that has been such a prominent part of his character.

Don

-


Part of what Travis is missing is the "Big Picture awareness". He knows how all the parts work and he's able to see (for lack of a better term) "the Middle Picture", but he's unable to step the one step beyond that and see the ramifications of "the middle picture".

Clegg was good at that - and she was always a big picture person, and people who could not see how their actions/inactions had long term ramifications annoyed her. (unfortunately this is also her failure, she had the inability to guide people to seeing the big picture like she did - most likely because of that annoyance factor.)

Once Travis is able to step back an evaluate the consequences of his decisions, he will be a more effective officer and leader, and in the course learn why there needs to be times where there is a certain lenience in rules and orders.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:22 pm

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HungryKing wrote:I have been toying with posting this, but does anyone else think that there is a faint possibility Travis is going to live to see Ad Astra commission, or even talk to Edward Saganami? I even have this bizarre idea that Saganami's class is going to receive a 'First View', delivered by Travis as the last living officer who was present at the Battle of Manticore, and then watch the commissioning of Ad Astra and that somehow Travis and Saganami take the same shuttle back to Manticore and that Travis dies right before the shuttle enters thick atmosphere.


Travis would, sadly, be 104 years old by the time Edward Saganami is even born. It's unlikely that he'll make it to Saganami's graduation or the commissioning of HMS Ad Astra - Stephanie Harrington is described as living a long time, but she only seems to make it just past her century.

However, he's only going to be 73 by the time the first transit of the Manticoran Junction is made. I do wonder if that's going to be the 'Epilogue' chapter of the final book in the series.

Or whether the final book is going to be about the fight to get a ship through the Junction, and it turns out to be a lot more difficult than the 'history books' make it seem.
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Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:36 pm

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Peter2 wrote:There is always the possibility that the Winterfall line continues through Gavin, and Travis provides such sterling service to the Crown that he is ennobled independently for his own deeds. I shall have to back through the Honorverse oevre and do some speculating on the possiblities . . . :geek: :geek: ;)
.


That's always possible. I'm kind of going off Sinead Terekhov, who's (according to RFC) a direct descendent of Travis. The Longs are well known as an old Navy family.

Her brother is 'Charles Travis', her mother is 'Lisa', which sounds like her mother's the Long. Sinead, otoh, is a cousin of Duke Winterfall.

So either a sibling of her mother married back into the Vellacott line, or it's one line of the Longs who are the Dukes Winterfall. ;)

But somebody (::cough:: RFC ::cough::) was definitely pulling our legs with those tiny little Sinead titbits. And I hope 'Charles' makes it into the Long family name list simply because Lisa and Travis name their child after their good friend Chomps, and not in memory of their good friend Chomps.
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