Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DJMacdonald and 14 guests

Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:26 pm

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by n7axw   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:23 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


Your comment about Gavin seems on target. I do wonder, though. I suspect that it isn't so much that Breakwater's
manipulating is ok for Gavin as it is that he has been tolerating it for the sake of his own career. The situation with the queen is simply the straw that breaks the camel's back on frustration that has been building all along... I wonder how that will translate over into other contexts in the future.

As for Travis, his penchant for enforcing rules is well known. But on the other side his superiors seem to respect both his commitment and the quality of his work... including Clegg who really doesn't like him all that well.

I predict that Lisa is going to be a major influence in mellowing out Travis and helping him past the shyness that has been such a prominent part of his character.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:35 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3171
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

n7axw wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


Your comment about Gavin seems on target. I do wonder, though. I suspect that it isn't so much that Breakwater's
manipulating is ok for Gavin as it is that he has been tolerating it for the sake of his own career. The situation with the queen is simply the straw that breaks the camel's back on frustration that has been building all along... I wonder how that will translate over into other contexts in the future.

As for Travis, his penchant for enforcing rules is well known. But on the other side his superiors seem to respect both his commitment and the quality of his work... including Clegg who really doesn't like him all that well.

I predict that Lisa is going to be a major influence in mellowing out Travis and helping him past the shyness that has been such a prominent part of his character.

Don

-


Part of what Travis is missing is the "Big Picture awareness". He knows how all the parts work and he's able to see (for lack of a better term) "the Middle Picture", but he's unable to step the one step beyond that and see the ramifications of "the middle picture".

Clegg was good at that - and she was always a big picture person, and people who could not see how their actions/inactions had long term ramifications annoyed her. (unfortunately this is also her failure, she had the inability to guide people to seeing the big picture like she did - most likely because of that annoyance factor.)

Once Travis is able to step back an evaluate the consequences of his decisions, he will be a more effective officer and leader, and in the course learn why there needs to be times where there is a certain lenience in rules and orders.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by glott   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:06 pm

glott
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am
Location: Lebanon, Oregon, USA

Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


I too recall there only being one "Battle of Manticore" before Manticore-Haven Wars, though I can't remember where I read it. :oops:

About Travis being Gavan's heir, he may be his next of kin, but he's not his successor, at least as far the Barony of Winterfall is concerned, IMHO. Travis is after all Gavan's half-brother. They have different fathers and, I assume, Gavan inherited the Winterfall title from his father. Unless of course, their mother was Baroness Winterfall who for some reason abdicated her title, but there is no textev for that.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

"...the ability of an entrenched, bureaucratic military to ignore anything which challenges its fundamental working assumptions simply cannot be exaggerated." - David Weber
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by n7axw   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

There was the tilt with the brotherhood prior to Axelrod's attempt on Manticore. But I've never heard that called "Battle of Manticore." That is a story that has been referred to but remains untold at this time.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:53 pm

Bluesqueak
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:04 pm

Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


I think Gavin, like Travis, like his mother, isn't much of a people person. So being taught, as he was by Breakwater, to manipulate people was probably something he just saw as part of a good politicians armoury.

And, like Travis, Gavin is naturally comfortable in a predetermined hierarchy. Breakwater plays on that, because Gavin will defer to his social and political superiors. But he fails to see that Gavin expects Breakwater to defer to his social and political superiors. Plus Breakwater is behaving badly enough that even Gavin gets that this isn't how you should behave to someone who's lost husband, nephew, brother and niece in the last four years.

This book shows Breakwater up as a complete sociopath - and more than a little paranoid. Not simply an ambitious politician, but a dangerous potential dictator. What does he have on the Wintons that made Michael abdicate and Edward keep him on? And it doesn't apply to Elizabeth, or he wouldn't have been looking so hard for a new lever.

The textev for Travis as heir is carefully ambiguous; we're meant to think that he's not - but Travis thinks of Winterfell as 'the family barony'. I think Melisande refused the title and the line goes through her. The Vellacott part of her name is in the 'maiden name' position.

Travis getting a command would remove the 'divided authority' problem. And I wonder if SIS are going to take a leaf out of the Andermani playbook, sending out Travis, Chomps and Lisa as 'merchant' officers on a Q ship.
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:27 am

isaac_newton
Captain of the List

Posts: 679
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

[SPOILERS]


Well - I just got my copy yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it :-)

I really do like that feeling of horizons opening out again, that you get at the begining of an arc of stories.

in Safehold and the mainline Honor stories we are coming to the end of a cycle, and sort of know how things will go and what must be addressed, but here, as in OBA, or OAR, there is such a sense of possibilities. - Much as when Captain Clegg realises that she is retting the template for remote deployment and what that means.

Yet there is also familiar things - places and names we already know - and then Haven being among the good guys!

I had the feeling that this book was going to eb the end of that series, but - I'm v glad to see - that there almost certainly will be more to come!
Last edited by isaac_newton on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:17 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

Bluesqueak wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.

Just as a matter of interest, does 'our Gavin' have an heir at the moment? Other than Travis I mean? :twisted:

Also At Last, somebody in the House of Winton does something about Breakwater, rather than just wringing their hands. Really, none of his supporters could have been bought, persuaded, prosecuted or leaned on before this? What did the prime minister think his job was about?

Maybe Clegg is right, if Travis gets a command he can be all stern, withdrawn and 'Master after God' and let his XO deal with the people stuff. (Ain't going to work too well on a corvette though!)

OK so we have had involvement with Haven, Silesia, Anderman. Where is there left for Travis to tick off on his tourist list? Talbot? The League?

Roll up, roll up, 'Heads or Tails'? Answers on a postcard, please.

Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


I think Gavin, like Travis, like his mother, isn't much of a people person. So being taught, as he was by Breakwater, to manipulate people was probably something he just saw as part of a good politicians armoury.

And, like Travis, Gavin is naturally comfortable in a predetermined hierarchy. Breakwater plays on that, because Gavin will defer to his social and political superiors. But he fails to see that Gavin expects Breakwater to defer to his social and political superiors. Plus Breakwater is behaving badly enough that even Gavin gets that this isn't how you should behave to someone who's lost husband, nephew, brother and niece in the last four years.

This book shows Breakwater up as a complete sociopath - and more than a little paranoid. Not simply an ambitious politician, but a dangerous potential dictator. What does he have on the Wintons that made Michael abdicate and Edward keep him on? And it doesn't apply to Elizabeth, or he wouldn't have been looking so hard for a new lever.

The textev for Travis as heir is carefully ambiguous; we're meant to think that he's not - but Travis thinks of Winterfell as 'the family barony'. I think Melisande refused the title and the line goes through her. The Vellacott part of her name is in the 'maiden name' position.

Travis getting a command would remove the 'divided authority' problem. And I wonder if SIS are going to take a leaf out of the Andermani playbook, sending out Travis, Chomps and Lisa as 'merchant' officers on a Q ship.


I've never viewed it as particularly ambiguous that Travis is NOT Gavin's heir, or even a member of the aristocracy per se. The aristocracy has been around for a while now--Roger I, Elizabeth I, Michael, Edward I-- and the forms were taken from someone's favorite historical fantasy. So the usages of courtesy titles would have had time to settle into place.

If his mother had a title, as a younger son, he would have been "the Honorable" Travis Long; if he was actually the Winterfell heir, he would have had the courtesy tile of "Lord" Long. There have been any number of people in the series like that. Scotty Tremaine's chief of staff is an Honorable; Mike Henke was an Honorable until she inherited because both her father and brother died. Pavel Young was Captain Lord Young until he inherited the title, while his younger brother, Stefan, was an Honorable--until Pavel inherited North Hollow, and Stefan became "Lord" Young.

As far as having something on the Wintons? You are reading too much into it. Michael retired for health reasons (like, old age :D ); Breakwater was kept, in spite of his empire building, because he did an excellent job as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Manticore was still recovering from the Plague years, and resources were slim. The problem Edward had, was, no one else available was as good at the job as Breakwater.

It is an interesting difference that later the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the number two member of the PM's party (i.e., Baroness Mourncreek would take over the PM's job if something happened to Willie Alexander). That is obviously not the case yet.

Regards,
Rob
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:39 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:11 pm

n7axw wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Spoilers



Wow, see what happens when the coastguard gets ticked off at the public. :twisted:

At last Winterfell finds some backbone and stops being a Breakwater lackey. Interesting that manipulating everyone but the Queen is OK, but he draws the line at her. It seems to be a constitutional rather than a moral objection, more's the pity. Now if only he could find a brain as well and see the gaping holes in Breakwater's position about a cluster of tiddly little ships being best.
SNIP
Am I right in thinking that it is canon that there has only ever been one battle in Manticore before Honor's time? Which battle we have seen, of course. If so where is the action heading next?


Your comment about Gavin seems on target. I do wonder, though. I suspect that it isn't so much that Breakwater's
manipulating is ok for Gavin as it is that he has been tolerating it for the sake of his own career. The situation with the queen is simply the straw that breaks the camel's back on frustration that has been building all along... I wonder how that will translate over into other contexts in the future.

As for Travis, his penchant for enforcing rules is well known. But on the other side his superiors seem to respect both his commitment and the quality of his work... including Clegg who really doesn't like him all that well.

I predict that Lisa is going to be a major influence in mellowing out Travis and helping him past the shyness that has been such a prominent part of his character.

Don

-

Theemile wrote:Part of what Travis is missing is the "Big Picture awareness". He knows how all the parts work and he's able to see (for lack of a better term) "the Middle Picture", but he's unable to step the one step beyond that and see the ramifications of "the middle picture".

Clegg was good at that - and she was always a big picture person, and people who could not see how their actions/inactions had long term ramifications annoyed her. (unfortunately this is also her failure, she had the inability to guide people to seeing the big picture like she did - most likely because of that annoyance factor.)

Once Travis is able to step back an evaluate the consequences of his decisions, he will be a more effective officer and leader, and in the course learn why there needs to be times where there is a certain lenience in rules and orders.


Randomizer: Breakwater was like Janacek or High Ridge--he doesn't see the need for a Navy, and his own department got command of MPARS. His twisting around is just empire building. But Winterfell actually mis-understood the battle; he saw the tiny corvettes take out a destroyer, and Casey a Battlecruiser, and actually doesn't get the fact that it was mostly just luck.

Theemile: Clegg was nervous about setting any precedents, particularly with foreign leaders or naval officers. In this case, the deployment may have done wonders for her--not least in the recognition of the differences between the RMN and the IAN, both in capability and professionalism. She might end up, along with Locatelli, in re-writing the book on officer training at the Naval Academy.

Rob
Top
Re: Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:40 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Spoilers

Bluesqueak wrote:And, like Travis, Gavin is naturally comfortable in a predetermined hierarchy. Breakwater plays on that, because Gavin will defer to his social and political superiors. But he fails to see that Gavin expects Breakwater to defer to his social and political superiors. Plus Breakwater is behaving badly enough that even Gavin gets that this isn't how you should behave to someone who's lost husband, nephew, brother and niece in the last four years.

This book shows Breakwater up as a complete sociopath - and more than a little paranoid. Not simply an ambitious politician, but a dangerous potential dictator. What does he have on the Wintons that made Michael abdicate and Edward keep him on? And it doesn't apply to Elizabeth, or he wouldn't have been looking so hard for a new lever.


Gavin expecting others to respect the social hierarchy is a very interesting angle I hadn't thought of. Could well be part of the explanation of his decision to turn on Breakwater. Also your summary of Elizabeth's losses really brings home how hard she has been hit and the kind of strength of character she has to be as forceful but balanced as she is. I don't think Breakwater had anything on Michael and Edward, I think they just lacked the forcefulness to stand up to him. Of course, in the end, Elizabeth got handed the lever she needed on a plate.

Bluesqueak wrote:The textev for Travis as heir is carefully ambiguous; we're meant to think that he's not - but Travis thinks of Winterfell as 'the family barony'. I think Melisande refused the title and the line goes through her. The Vellacott part of her name is in the 'maiden name' position.

Travis getting a command would remove the 'divided authority' problem. And I wonder if SIS are going to take a leaf out of the Andermani playbook, sending out Travis, Chomps and Lisa as 'merchant' officers on a Q ship.


My heir comment was partly mischievous, but my reasoning was along your lines. The family background is vague, no mention of grandfathers or of whether Melisande's first marriage ended in divorce or with the death of her husband. It would be unusual for a woman to hang on to the name of her first husband once she married again, so Vellacott reads more naturally as her maiden name. I could easily see her refusing the title in favour of Gavin so she could play with her dogs rather than have to be bothered with Parliament, and Gavin just loves his social standing so much that he would have been over the moon about it. Having taken the title Gavin might quite well have adopted the appropriate surname.

Travis and Chomps on a Q-ship sounds an intriguing way to go, but Lisa isn't going to be there. Firstly, she would be senior to Travis so the 'divided authority' problem wouldn't be solved. Secondly, assuming she agrees to marry him, which she hasn't quite yet, they can't serve together because you can't have husband and wife in the same chain of command. (I assume that Reg goes back this far. Actually even if she refuses him it would be too dangerous to have that history in the same chain of command) Maybe that will be solved by the coin toss?
Top

Return to Honorverse