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SLN Energy Weapon Oddity

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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:20 am

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pappilon wrote:

Their ships are fighting the war that happened 300 years ago. We hearken back to the Jeune Ecole SLN planning, strategy and construction are "Old School" designs where SDs battered each other rather ineffectively with contact nukes until someone made the mistake of letting the enemy get within laser/graser range.

Half the ships of the like have autocannons instead of laser clusters for point defence. Not meaning to reprise old arguments in the uses for Obsolete SLN SDs topic.


Autocannon for point defense aren't just Vieille école. They belong to a school of tactics and technics so old it's name is given in Medieval French. Do auto cannon even have enough range to defend against Mk 23s before they enter stand-off range?
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Castenea   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:13 am

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Fox2! wrote:
pappilon wrote:

Their ships are fighting the war that happened 300 years ago. We hearken back to the Jeune Ecole SLN planning, strategy and construction are "Old School" designs where SDs battered each other rather ineffectively with contact nukes until someone made the mistake of letting the enemy get within laser/graser range.

Half the ships of the like have autocannons instead of laser clusters for point defence. Not meaning to reprise old arguments in the uses for Obsolete SLN SDs topic.


Autocannon for point defense aren't just Vieille école. They belong to a school of tactics and technics so old it's name is given in Medieval French. Do auto cannon even have enough range to defend against Mk 23s before they enter stand-off range?
Rather bluntly, autocannon were obsolete as soon as a practical laser head was developed as the standoff range of even early laser heads was near if not beyond the max effective range of the autocannon. Even the SLN is not willing to send sailors out in ships equipped with auto cannon. All SLN ships equipped with auto cannon are part of the reserve. All active SLN ships are equipped with laser point defence.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:13 am

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Castenea wrote:
Autocannon for point defense aren't just Vieille école. They belong to a school of tactics and technics so old it's name is given in Medieval French. Do auto cannon even have enough range to defend against Mk 23s before they enter stand-off range?
Rather bluntly, autocannon were obsolete as soon as a practical laser head was developed as the standoff range of even early laser heads was near if not beyond the max effective range of the autocannon. Even the SLN is not willing to send sailors out in ships equipped with auto cannon. All SLN ships equipped with auto cannon are part of the reserve. All active SLN ships are equipped with laser point defence.[/quote]

Actually, they were obsolete before that even. In the early 1800s, the standoff range of the sidewall "burn" setting on contact nukes was upped to 6,000 KM, then 10,000 KM as grav emitters improved.

Autocannon have a range measured in 100s of KM - with your odds of engaging anything successfully over 1000km rapidly falling off.

Pretty much, after 1810, autocannon were totally obsolete. After 1870, worthless.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am

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Castenea wrote:[Even the SLN is not willing to send sailors out in ships equipped with auto cannon. All SLN ships equipped with auto cannon are part of the reserve. All active SLN ships are equipped with laser point defence.
Exactly. Having ships still carry auto cannon is ‘only’ a sign of how ridiculously oversized the reserve is; and consequently how slowly the SLN rotates ship in the reserve through modernization upgrades.

Any ship with an auto cannon has likely been mothballed in the reserve for more than a century;

When they do swap ships out of the reserve they put them through an extensive and lengthy modernization process to bring up to current specs. Then they rotate a ship that was on active duty back in the reserves, infantessimally raising the average tech level of the reserves.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by HungryKing   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:28 am

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Actually some ships are put directly into the reserve,
and for every new ship one is struck from the reserve. But yes autocannon should only appear on ships built before 1790 PD (given that the PDLC appeared in ~1780 PD) that have not been refit since around 1825 PD (PDAC ceased having any role against a burn setting in 1820 PD as far as I recall). But there is text evidence that the SLN only became serious about such after 1880 PD, when the laserhead had demonstrated that it was effective.

Jonathan_S wrote:
Castenea wrote:[Even the SLN is not willing to send sailors out in ships equipped with auto cannon. All SLN ships equipped with auto cannon are part of the reserve. All active SLN ships are equipped with laser point defence.
Exactly. Having ships still carry auto cannon is ‘only’ a sign of how ridiculously oversized the reserve is; and consequently how slowly the SLN rotates ship in the reserve through modernization upgrades.

Any ship with an auto cannon has likely been mothballed in the reserve for more than a century;

When they do swap ships out of the reserve they put them through an extensive and lengthy modernization process to bring up to current specs. Then they rotate a ship that was on active duty back in the reserves, infantessimally raising the average tech level of the reserves.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:01 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Actually, they were obsolete before that even. In the early 1800s, the standoff range of the sidewall "burn" setting on contact nukes was upped to 6,000 KM, then 10,000 KM as grav emitters improved.

Autocannon have a range measured in 100s of KM - with your odds of engaging anything successfully over 1000km rapidly falling off.

Pretty much, after 1810, autocannon were totally obsolete. After 1870, worthless.

No, they were useful when Grayson and the RMN was fighting with Haven and Massada. That might have been the last time.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:18 pm

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kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Actually, they were obsolete before that even. In the early 1800s, the standoff range of the sidewall "burn" setting on contact nukes was upped to 6,000 KM, then 10,000 KM as grav emitters improved.

Autocannon have a range measured in 100s of KM - with your odds of engaging anything successfully over 1000km rapidly falling off.

Pretty much, after 1810, autocannon were totally obsolete. After 1870, worthless.

No, they were useful when Grayson and the RMN was fighting with Haven and Massada. That might have been the last time.

Only because Masada had missile tech less capable than what first line navies had 50 years earlier. The autocannon were virtually useless against the laserheads from the two "ex-"Peep ships.

There are probably still a few systems way out in the verges that are still so behind that their best missile is no better than what the League had in 1810 PD, over a century ago. And against them an autocannon isn't yet worthless.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by pappilon   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:55 am

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Theemile wrote: Actually, they were obsolete before that even. In the early 1800s, the standoff range of the sidewall "burn" setting on contact nukes was upped to 6,000 KM, then 10,000 KM as grav emitters improved.

Autocannon have a range measured in 100s of KM - with your odds of engaging anything successfully over 1000km rapidly falling off.

Pretty much, after 1810, autocannon were totally obsolete. After 1870, worthless.



kzt" ]No, they were useful when Grayson and the RMN was fighting with Haven and Massada. That might have been the last time.[/quote]


[quote="Jonathan_S wrote:
Only because Masada had missile tech less capable than what first line navies had 50 years earlier. The autocannon were virtually useless against the laserheads from the two "ex-"Peep ships.

There are probably still a few systems way out in the verges that are still so behind that their best missile is no better than what the League had in 1810 PD, over a century ago. And against them an autocannon isn't yet worthless.
.

The point being, the SLN's basic Doctrine and principles themselves are obsolete. SDowsn't matter how new or shiny technologically cutting edge the various ship components are, doctrine, training, virtually everything that goes into creating a fighting force is 200 years old and 60 years obsolete.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:26 am

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pappilon wrote:
Theemile wrote: Actually, they were obsolete before that even. In the early 1800s, the standoff range of the sidewall "burn" setting on contact nukes was upped to 6,000 KM, then 10,000 KM as grav emitters improved.

Autocannon have a range measured in 100s of KM - with your odds of engaging anything successfully over 1000km rapidly falling off.

Pretty much, after 1810, autocannon were totally obsolete. After 1870, worthless.



kzt" ]No, they were useful when Grayson and the RMN was fighting with Haven and Massada. That might have been the last time.[/quote]


[quote="Jonathan_S wrote:
Only because Masada had missile tech less capable than what first line navies had 50 years earlier. The autocannon were virtually useless against the laserheads from the two "ex-"Peep ships.

There are probably still a few systems way out in the verges that are still so behind that their best missile is no better than what the League had in 1810 PD, over a century ago. And against them an autocannon isn't yet worthless.
.

The point being, the SLN's basic Doctrine and principles themselves are obsolete. SDowsn't matter how new or shiny technologically cutting edge the various ship components are, doctrine, training, virtually everything that goes into creating a fighting force is 200 years old and 60 years obsolete.


Even worse, so are the people. The officers have all trained on obsolete weapons and tactics. The senior offices might have been doing it for more than a half century. No matter how good they are, they are likely to make mistakes.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Castenea wrote:[Even the SLN is not willing to send sailors out in ships equipped with auto cannon. All SLN ships equipped with auto cannon are part of the reserve. All active SLN ships are equipped with laser point defence.
Exactly. Having ships still carry auto cannon is ‘only’ a sign of how ridiculously oversized the reserve is; and consequently how slowly the SLN rotates ship in the reserve through modernization upgrades.

Any ship with an auto cannon has likely been mothballed in the reserve for more than a century;

When they do swap ships out of the reserve they put them through an extensive and lengthy modernization process to bring up to current specs. Then they rotate a ship that was on active duty back in the reserves, infantessimally raising the average tech level of the reserves.


spellcheck: infinitesimally.

I don't correct spelling errors or grammar. In this case, I know the poster would appreciate it. Can't believe your spellchecker didn't balk.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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