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SLN Energy Weapon Oddity

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SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by KJakker   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:40 pm

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I think I have noticed an oddity in the energy weapon armament of SLN warship. It first came to my attention with the Nevada-Class battlecruiser and in reading the Uncompromising Honor, snippet #1 it caught my attention again.

Who in the SLN’s procurement office has been reading the reports of the changes in energy weapon mixes coming out of Grayson and was able to get those changes pushed through in the SLN’s latest designs?

In the Uncompromising Honor snippet, there is no mention of broadside Laser mounts on the Solarian super dreadnoughts, only Grasers. Additionally let us look at battlecruisers where I first noticed this oddity in the back of Storm from the Shadows.

Here is the weapons compliment of the SLN’s Nevada-class.

Nevada class
Broadside: 28M 12G 12CM 16PD
Chase: 6M 4G 6CM 8PD

Note how the Nevada in total weapons is actual quite similar to the Warlord class with the exception of the reversed priority on PD clusters vs. CM launchers due to lack of missile centric combat experience and the fact that the Nevada has an all Graser energy weapon armament.

In fact, when you look down the list of known PN/RHN, RMN, and GSN non-pod laying battlecruisers only the GSN’s Courvosier-Class and the RMN’s newest Nike-class have Graser only energy weapons. Until the Grayson’s came along everyone used mixed energy weapon batteries on ships of this size.

PN/RHN

Tiger class
Broadside: 16M 5L 5G 12CM 10PD
Chase: 4M 1G 4CM 4PD

Sultan class
Broadside: 18M 6L 6G 14CM 12PD
Chase: 5M 2L 6CM 6PD

Warlord class
Broadside: 26M 6L 6G 16CM 12PD
Chase: 6M 2G 6CM 6PD

RMN

Redoutable class
Broadside: 18M 8L 6G 9CM 9PD
Chase: 6M 1G 6CM 4PD

Homer class
Broadside: 20M 8L 8G 1GL 4ET 9CM 9PD
Chase: 4M 2G 4CM 6PD

Reliant (Flight I) class
Broadside: 22M 8L 6G 2ET 10CM 10PD
Chase: 4M 1L 2G 6CM 6PD

Reliant (Flight III-IV) class
Broadside: 24M 4L 6G 18CM 18PD
Chase: 4M 2G 6CM 6PD

Nike class
Broadside: 25M 12G 32CM 30PD
Chase: 4G 12PD

GSN

Courvosier class
Broadside: 26M 8G 16CM 16PD
Chase: 4M 2G 6CM 6PD

Finally, here is what really made me stop and think, on more than one occasion it has been commented upon that the Solarian League Navy was once considered the premier space navy by which the rest of the galaxy compared its ships to and imitated when it came to warship design. As such, the mixed Laser and Graser energy armament found on ships from battlecruiser through super dreadnoughts is a warship design philosophy with its origins in the SLN. Therefore, what would get such a glacially slow and myopic organization as the SLN to abandon the traditional energy weapon mix on its capital ships in favor of this new all Graser energy battery while ignoring everything else regarding space combat coming out of the Haven sector?
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by munroburton   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:16 pm

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I'm pretty sure the Nevadas' grasers are still "BC sized", similar to the ones on Reliants/Homers(and Shrike LACs). Approximately 150cm aperture IIRC.

The grasers on the Courvosiers/Nikes were lifted from the Gryphon SD. 500cm apertures.

As for why SLN BCs appear to have all-graser energy weapons, it's a puzzle. I will point out that we don't know what the specs for the Indefatigable's energy weapons are. And that we do know Frontier Fleet has a maddening mixture of ships from different flights being refitted at different times to and from different updated specs. Many answers will (hopefully) be in the SL companion book.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:54 pm

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munroburton wrote:I'm pretty sure the Nevadas' grasers are still "BC sized", similar to the ones on Reliants/Homers(and Shrike LACs). Approximately 150cm aperture IIRC.

The grasers on the Courvosiers/Nikes were lifted from the Gryphon SD. 500cm apertures.

As for why SLN BCs appear to have all-graser energy weapons, it's a puzzle. I will point out that we don't know what the specs for the Indefatigable's energy weapons are. And that we do know Frontier Fleet has a maddening mixture of ships from different flights being refitted at different times to and from different updated specs. Many answers will (hopefully) be in the SL companion book.


While there wasn't a lot of difference in the combat capability of the Indefagitable and the Nevada, there were some design improvements that came out the "Fleet 2000" upgrade program. But what drove the program in the first place was rumored improvements in war fighting tech in the Haven Sector. And Sollie contractors had access to the Havenite yards during the development of the Mars/Warlord classes.
Rob
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by KJakker   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:11 pm

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munroburton wrote:I'm pretty sure the Nevadas' grasers are still "BC sized", similar to the ones on Reliants/Homers(and Shrike LACs). Approximately 150cm aperture IIRC.

The grasers on the Courvosiers/Nikes were lifted from the Gryphon SD. 500cm apertures.

As for why SLN BCs appear to have all-graser energy weapons, it's a puzzle. I will point out that we don't know what the specs for the Indefatigable's energy weapons are. And that we do know Frontier Fleet has a maddening mixture of ships from different flights being refitted at different times to and from different updated specs. Many answers will (hopefully) be in the SL companion book.


I should have mentioned that I am aware of the upgrade in size of the RMN/GSN BC grasers and I knew from Storm from the Shadow or Shadow of Freedom, can't remember which, that the SLN grasers are still typical size. However I thought it was interesting enough that the SLN seems to have gone with an all-graser broadside on its cap ships and I did not want to clutter up my original post more than necessary.

I did once post over on Beans Bar an analysis of just how much the Nike class likely out matched the Nevada class in energy range.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:14 am

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KJakker wrote:I think I have noticed an oddity in the energy weapon armament of SLN warship. It first came to my attention with the Nevada-Class battlecruiser and in reading the Uncompromising Honor, snippet #1 it caught my attention again.

Who in the SLN’s procurement office has been reading the reports of the changes in energy weapon mixes coming out of Grayson and was able to get those changes pushed through in the SLN’s latest designs?

In the Uncompromising Honor snippet, there is no mention of broadside Laser mounts on the Solarian super dreadnoughts, only Grasers. Additionally let us look at battlecruisers where I first noticed this oddity in the back of Storm from the Shadows.
[snip]
As such, the mixed Laser and Graser energy armament found on ships from battlecruiser through super dreadnoughts is a warship design philosophy with its origins in the SLN. Therefore, what would get such a glacially slow and myopic organization as the SLN to abandon the traditional energy weapon mix on its capital ships in favor of this new all Graser energy battery while ignoring everything else regarding space combat coming out of the Haven sector?
However the older quote, in Mission of Honor about Scientists do mention broadside lasers. "The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside." "the Vega class, which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside." [both from MoH Ch 20]

But yes, from the spec sheet at the end of Storm from the Shadows we have the full weapons count for Nevada-class BCs and it does not have any lasers. Which is odd. I wish we had any offensive weapons details about the older Indefatigable class BCs - about all I've been able to find is that one of Hexapuma's Mk16 blew out a broadside graser on one of the Monican Indefatigables so they mounts at least some of those - but I have no text on whether or not they also carry lasers.

So their latest SDs are still mixed battery - but they are also an older design than their newest BCs. So while it's interesting that the Nevada-class went to pure graser it's hard to tell if that the start of a general trend or a one-off[1]

[1] Remember the RMN's old Warrior-class CA initially in service in 1794, more than a century before the start of the series, carried an all graser broadside. But that design choice didn't spread to any other contemporary or follow-up designs of any type
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:50 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
KJakker wrote:I think I have noticed an oddity in the energy weapon armament of SLN warship. It first came to my attention with the Nevada-Class battlecruiser and in reading the Uncompromising Honor, snippet #1 it caught my attention again.

Who in the SLN’s procurement office has been reading the reports of the changes in energy weapon mixes coming out of Grayson and was able to get those changes pushed through in the SLN’s latest designs?

In the Uncompromising Honor snippet, there is no mention of broadside Laser mounts on the Solarian super dreadnoughts, only Grasers. Additionally let us look at battlecruisers where I first noticed this oddity in the back of Storm from the Shadows.
[snip]
As such, the mixed Laser and Graser energy armament found on ships from battlecruiser through super dreadnoughts is a warship design philosophy with its origins in the SLN. Therefore, what would get such a glacially slow and myopic organization as the SLN to abandon the traditional energy weapon mix on its capital ships in favor of this new all Graser energy battery while ignoring everything else regarding space combat coming out of the Haven sector?
However the older quote, in Mission of Honor about Scientists do mention broadside lasers. "The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside." "the Vega class, which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside." [both from MoH Ch 20]

But yes, from the spec sheet at the end of Storm from the Shadows we have the full weapons count for Nevada-class BCs and it does not have any lasers. Which is odd. I wish we had any offensive weapons details about the older Indefatigable class BCs - about all I've been able to find is that one of Hexapuma's Mk16 blew out a broadside graser on one of the Monican Indefatigables so they mounts at least some of those - but I have no text on whether or not they also carry lasers.

So their latest SDs are still mixed battery - but they are also an older design than their newest BCs. So while it's interesting that the Nevada-class went to pure graser it's hard to tell if that the start of a general trend or a one-off[1]

[1] Remember the RMN's old Warrior-class CA initially in service in 1794, more than a century before the start of the series, carried an all graser broadside. But that design choice didn't spread to any other contemporary or follow-up designs of any type


The Courageous, the contemporary CL design also mounted Grasers
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:49 am

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:[1] Remember the RMN's old Warrior-class CA initially in service in 1794, more than a century before the start of the series, carried an all graser broadside. But that design choice didn't spread to any other contemporary or follow-up designs of any type


The Courageous, the contemporary CL design also mounted Grasers
But in a mixed battery. Its broadside energy mounts were 2 lasers and 2 grasers. The Warrior carried 6 grasers and no lasers. It was that grasers for all broadside energy mounts that wasn’t repeated in any known RMN class until well after the start of the war.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by munroburton   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:46 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
KJakker wrote:I think I have noticed an oddity in the energy weapon armament of SLN warship. It first came to my attention with the Nevada-Class battlecruiser and in reading the Uncompromising Honor, snippet #1 it caught my attention again.

Who in the SLN’s procurement office has been reading the reports of the changes in energy weapon mixes coming out of Grayson and was able to get those changes pushed through in the SLN’s latest designs?

In the Uncompromising Honor snippet, there is no mention of broadside Laser mounts on the Solarian super dreadnoughts, only Grasers. Additionally let us look at battlecruisers where I first noticed this oddity in the back of Storm from the Shadows.
[snip]
As such, the mixed Laser and Graser energy armament found on ships from battlecruiser through super dreadnoughts is a warship design philosophy with its origins in the SLN. Therefore, what would get such a glacially slow and myopic organization as the SLN to abandon the traditional energy weapon mix on its capital ships in favor of this new all Graser energy battery while ignoring everything else regarding space combat coming out of the Haven sector?
However the older quote, in Mission of Honor about Scientists do mention broadside lasers. "The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside." "the Vega class, which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside." [both from MoH Ch 20]

But yes, from the spec sheet at the end of Storm from the Shadows we have the full weapons count for Nevada-class BCs and it does not have any lasers. Which is odd. I wish we had any offensive weapons details about the older Indefatigable class BCs - about all I've been able to find is that one of Hexapuma's Mk16 blew out a broadside graser on one of the Monican Indefatigables so they mounts at least some of those - but I have no text on whether or not they also carry lasers.

So their latest SDs are still mixed battery - but they are also an older design than their newest BCs. So while it's interesting that the Nevada-class went to pure graser it's hard to tell if that the start of a general trend or a one-off[1]

[1] Remember the RMN's old Warrior-class CA initially in service in 1794, more than a century before the start of the series, carried an all graser broadside. But that design choice didn't spread to any other contemporary or follow-up designs of any type


The Scientists' lasers weren't mentioned in the UH snippet, but that may simply indicate the lasers were not considered worth salvaging.

As for the Warrior - I remembered the RMN's first battlecruisers were Solarian-built, the ones present during the Manticore Ascendant trilogy. Those BCs were later redesignated as heavy cruisers. There is a slim possibility that SLN philosophy always had an all-graser fit on BCs and this trait carried over to RMN heavy cruisers until after the Warrior.
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:59 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:
The Courageous, the contemporary CL design also mounted Grasers
But in a mixed battery. Its broadside energy mounts were 2 lasers and 2 grasers. The Warrior carried 6 grasers and no lasers. It was that grasers for all broadside energy mounts that wasn’t repeated in any known RMN class until well after the start of the war.


True, be we don't see a return of any Grasers to DD or CLs designs until the 1902 Valiant Class - which was designed to be a 1:1 replacement of the Courageous class.

It could have been that the Courageous' mixed battery was a compromise at that time due to the small size of the design, balancing hitting power and redundancy. The Nobelese class, the destroyer consort of the Courageous, didn't even try to mount Grasers on it's small frame.

or not...

It should also be pointed out that the Redoubtable class of BCs, a design only ~12 years older than the Warrior Class, had a mixed broadside, with 8 lasers and 6 grasers.

Which goes further to suggest that the Warrior "all Graser" design was an aberration, not a standard at the time, though it appears that Grasers were more heavily used in 1800 than 1850 in RMN designs.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SLN Energy Weapon Oddity
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:19 am

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Might not be a product of any kind of technical analysis for optimizing combat capability. It's the Solarian League - it might be a military equipment contractor lobbied the Navy to adopt an all-graser mount because it was more profitable for the company to solely produce grasers and not produce both grasers and lasers.
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