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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:49 pm

ldwechsler
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Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

glott wrote:
cthia wrote:Again, I can't understand why many of you are so quick to easily accept the bastardization of John Harrington's quote and your willingness to support the many who are in power to take advantage of that quote. Yet, why should the same strategy not be open to the League, with all of this rampant talk about legal issues :lol: in the face of a dying superpower! :roll:

Emergency, on-the-spot, war powers is what the Mandarins enacted. They ignored proper protocol, yes. But they did so in light of "the spirit of the law" AND THEIR SURVIVAL!

The "spirit of the law" supports their actions considering the untenable position they were in. They were desperate. Just like the Havenites were when they attempted the same thing. They went for a Hail Mary pass and it was intercepted. Their trick play even ended up in a safety for the other team. Both plays were not only thwarted, but were turned into offense for the enemy - the worst possible outcome for a play, because someone gave the other team the playbook. And they got clobbered!

The Mandarins went for a sucker punch, out of desperation to save itself and the League. As any entity would do. As any navy would do, that it even has the raw innate human will and right to do, survive! Again, it was nothing less than what Haven tried with the first BOM. Hit them while they are unaware, unsuspecting and one big happy family, utilizing the element of surprise. It is self-preservation. They didn't have time to bother with "niggling little details" like going through the League Assembly. That would have taken too much time and time was not a luxury the SLN had. In fact, it could have been argued that if the Mandarins failed to act decisively, facing the inevitable death to the League and the threat to Old Earth, would have been treasonous...

Given what they thought was obvious, that the Manty Home defenses were gutted. And that the writing on the wall says that if they do not score, and score big, during the two minute warning, they are doomed.

What is wrong about a decision to make a quick thrust down the heart of an enemy and to a system that is on your long range plans to absorb anyway, when you see a weakness in the system's heart? To wait and let that moment pass would have been highly irresponsible of the League. The League was expansionistic, they didn't just become so overnight.

"But they just don't want Beowulf to secede!"

Of course they don't! You can't fault them there. Beowulf's junction represents a direct axis of threat into the League. Beowulf's secession would threaten the League at its core, from within, like a disease. Many of you continue to allow your prejudices to color your logic. It is difficult to remain emotionally detached, fair and impartial, when you are a reader.


****** *

After being alerted, Beowulf proceeded to pull at the stitch that was the snitch, thus exacerbating the glitch even further. They did not elect to sew the stitch up. They elected to pull at the system glitch that provided a snitch, instead of stitching the stitch that is a snitch, thus resisting the itch to unravel the plan even further.

Beowulf was bad. Really really bad. It doesn't matter if you and I don't think they were bad. We don't weigh 800#.


Relevant bit underlined.

Now I know that this may provoke strong feelings, but I really am not trying to offend anyone.

But when I read this post, particularly the underline bit. It seems like a justification for any surprise attack. Just change "system" to "nation" and it could be the Japanese rationale for Pearl Harbor.


There are a lot of problems with your statements. First of all, the idea of loyalty to the LEAGUE. People are loyal to their countries, not to a League. French people don't sing the UN anthem, whatever it is and we do the Star Spangled Banner, etc.

Second, since there is really no voting power on the League, individual planets can not be held responsible. That's like saying that I'm responsible for the Parkland shootings because I live in Florida.

Note also that there are a lot of people in different countries who openly disagree with leadership. And they act.

In terms of the UN, if we went along with what they've been voting on we would probably be responsible for a couple of genocidal wars. Certainly we would wipe out Israel. Of course, they would probably kill millions of non-Israelis.

People and planets think for themselves. Beowulf did not vote in the Mandarins. Therefore, they owe them no loyalty.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:38 pm

Joat42
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Posts: 1798
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:01 am
Location: Sweden

cthia wrote:Again, I can't understand why many of you are so quick to easily accept the bastardization of John Harrington's quote and your willingness to support the many who are in power to take advantage of that quote. Yet, why should the same strategy not be open to the League, with all of this rampant talk about legal issues :lol: in the face of a dying superpower! :roll:

Emergency, on-the-spot, war powers is what the Mandarins enacted. They ignored proper protocol, yes. But they did so in light of "the spirit of the law" AND THEIR SURVIVAL!

The "spirit of the law" supports their actions considering the untenable position they were in. They were desperate. Just like the Havenites were when they attempted the same thing. They went for a Hail Mary pass and it was intercepted. Their trick play even ended up in a safety for the other team. Both plays were not only thwarted, but were turned into offense for the enemy - the worst possible outcome for a play, because someone gave the other team the playbook. And they got clobbered!

The Mandarins went for a sucker punch, out of desperation to save itself and the League. As any entity would do. As any navy would do, that it even has the raw innate human will and right to do, survive! Again, it was nothing less than what Haven tried with the first BOM. Hit them while they are unaware, unsuspecting and one big happy family, utilizing the element of surprise. It is self-preservation. They didn't have time to bother with "niggling little details" like going through the League Assembly. That would have taken too much time and time was not a luxury the SLN had. In fact, it could have been argued that if the Mandarins failed to act decisively, facing the inevitable death to the League and the threat to Old Earth, would have been treasonous...

Given what they thought was obvious, that the Manty Home defenses were gutted. And that the writing on the wall says that if they do not score, and score big, during the two minute warning, they are doomed.

What is wrong about a decision to make a quick thrust down the heart of an enemy and to a system that is on your long range plans to absorb anyway, when you see a weakness in the system's heart? To wait and let that moment pass would have been highly irresponsible of the League. The League was expansionistic, they didn't just become so overnight.

"But they just don't want Beowulf to secede!"

Of course they don't! You can't fault them there. Beowulf's junction represents a direct axis of threat into the League. Beowulf's secession would threaten the League at its core, from within, like a disease. Many of you continue to allow your prejudices to color your logic. It is difficult to remain emotionally detached, fair and impartial, when you are a reader.


****** *

After being alerted, Beowulf proceeded to pull at the stitch that was the snitch, thus exacerbating the glitch even further. They did not elect to sew the stitch up. They elected to pull at the system glitch that provided a snitch, instead of stitching the stitch that is a snitch, thus resisting the itch to unravel the plan even further.

Beowulf was bad. Really really bad. It doesn't matter if you and I don't think they were bad. We don't weigh 800#.

Your whole reasoning about the League, the Mandarins and Beowulf is that because the League have done a lot of idiotic things (that are illegal according to their own constitution) which have led to a situation which threatens the Leagues very survival it's their moral right to steamroll anyone to ensure that they may survive - including attacking one of the founding nations. And anyone opposing this highly illegal but "necessary" act is very bad and must be punished.

I can fault them, because their situation is entirely self-inflicted. Even the Mandarins conceded this.

And the whole premise about possibly attacking Beowulf to secure the WH is just political spin for the stupid sheep in the League. The Mandarins discusses this specifically in ART since no sane person would ever thinking of attacking the core worlds - because that is one way to guarantee that the League members will pull together.

You accuse others of "allowing your prejudices to color your logic", I would say your reasoning is entirely emotional and not factual OR even that logical. I would characterize it as belonging to a romanticized version of the League and the events that has transpired.

And the Solarian 800 pound gorilla? It's old, arthritic and keeps falling over, smashing its face in - repeatedly.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by schoeffelk   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:12 am

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Before Zilwicki and Cachat went to Mesa, MA plans were already afoot. The plan to attack Manticore. The plan for the fringe breaking away blamed on the Star Kingdom. The plan for Haven and Manticore to knock each other bloody.

Then Byng, Crandall, and Filareta would still have died, those deployments were in motion, but the Star Kingdom would have been effectively neutered. Only when Simoes surfaced did the Master Plan begin to unravel.

Who fed Beowulf the SLN plans? Who wants every potential enemy gutted? Who wants interstellar chaos?

I propose that Mesa 'leaked' Tsang's plans when Manticore and Haven made peace. They leaked it to/through Beowulf, blamed then on Beowulf, to speed the fracturing of the SL.

Chaos and disinformation is their game.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:14 am

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No, they were already clearly seeing that the Mesa based corps were acting very odd. It really doesn't change your response whether it's the board of directors of Manpower deciding to attacking you are some third party telling them to attack you. You are under attack from a couple of Mesa based corps.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:12 am

cthia
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Posts: 12974
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

LEAGUE CONSTITUTION


WE ARE THE MANDARINS.

That is the gist of it.


If you want it all...


We Are The Mandarins
Queen

I've paid my dues
Time after time
I've done my sentence
But committed no crime
And bad mistakes
I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through
(And I need to go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
I've taken my bows
And my curtain calls
You brought me fame and fortune and everything that goes with it
I thank you all
But it's been no bed of roses
No pleasure cruise
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I ain't gonna lose
(And I need just go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:20 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

cthia wrote:
LEAGUE CONSTITUTION


WE ARE THE MANDARINS.

That is the gist of it.


If you want it all...


We Are The Mandarins
Queen

I've paid my dues
Time after time
I've done my sentence
But committed no crime
And bad mistakes
I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through
(And I need to go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
I've taken my bows
And my curtain calls
You brought me fame and fortune and everything that goes with it
I thank you all
But it's been no bed of roses
No pleasure cruise
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I ain't gonna lose
(And I need just go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins



Nice parody. The thing is that in a sense you are right. The Mandarins run the League.

But I bet that is not in the Constitution. Take a look at the UN and its bylaws, etc. (I'm not certain it actually has a Constitution). There are all sorts of nice things: there are guarantees of freedom of speech (and a few years ago it agreed that any anti-religious speech (read anti-Islamic) was forbidden. There are all sorts of things that are guaranteed and ignored.

For the League it was worse. First of all, it was far older. Second, each planet to a large degree runs itself (Terra MIGHT BE an exception) if it is a full member. But the bureaucracy rules.

So, officially the Mandarins don't really quite exist. We've had it somewhere in text that I think it was O'Hanrahan who gave them that name. And remember who she works for. I would guess the figurehead leaders generally got the credit/blame for things they had no voice in.

That might be the most interesting change. People are now looking at the real decision makers. That could create even more changes if/when the whole system begins to collapse.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:17 am

cthia
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Posts: 12974
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

phillies wrote:We would of course need the League Constitution, all of it, which we do not have, but I do not believe that your argument holds water.

I really like this post. It comes very close to the bank of the river of truth. It is struggling against the current, but I can see a lot of the elements of reality in the boat, they've simply become a bit juggled and misconstrued by the raging rapids that is reality to the Mandarins. I'll attempt to correct that. I provided a copy of the League Constitution in a previous post. I did get that memo.

phillies wrote:First, in our world at least, crimes are crimes by people. We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime. The notion that Beowulf as a planet can commit treason makes no more sense than the claim that Luxembourg can commit treason, at least in terms of current law. When at the end of World War 2 Germans were punished for crimes and executed, a recycle of the World War One War Crimes trials that people tend to forget, it was individual military officers, individual government officials, and one (that I recall) private citizen who were variously tried for crimes against humanity and/or crimes against peace, convicted, and executed. Germany was not tried,.

At least you made contact with the ball phillies. Alas, it was a foul. It's that damn human element again. One of my teachers once told me "You have an uncanny ability to be the character. Don't ever lose that."

Crimes are crimes by people. Crimes are also crimes committed unto people. Crimes can be committed unto people unwittingly and unbeknownst. We can fatally offend someone and be killed, without ever having a clue as to why we are dead. Again I hear the gist of my Driver's Ed teacher's sentiment...

"It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong. You are still dead!"

20M BEOWULFANS ARE STILL DEAD.

I found his teaching to apply to life in general as well.

phillies wrote:"We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime."

Yes we do! And it is at the heart of the crux of my argument which has its roots in the human element. If you fail to grasp it, you'll never see the reality of the discussion. Or of life. And failing to understand it can lead to death or dismemberment. Death and dismemberment for Beowulf. A large majority of crimes are committed against people. The crime may not actually be a specific statue on the books. If I offend my neighbor next door because of nothing I did legally wrong, but it was very offensive to him personally, so much so that he is passionate about it to the point that he murders me, it was a crime. A crime against my neighbor and his sensibilities, first! People kill! Transgressed laws don't. It won't matter to you who are now six feet under that it wasn't a transgression against an actual statue on the books. It matters to the one who is going to put you and maybe even your entire family six feet under.

A group of friends and I were walking downtown in one particular city one day. One of those colleagues was having trouble with the caps on his front teeth. He had been taking his thumb and doing some sort of flicking gesture that he says helped with the discomfort. He had been doing that for hours. A couple of cops walked up to him and was livid. Passionately livid about what they took as a racist gesture against Italian cops. Apparently the thumb flick of the two front teeth is a racist gesture akin to flipping Italians off? The cops were highly enraged. And I can assure you, the dumbfounded look on my colleague's face was genuine.

Notions can kill!

Wearing the wrong colors in the right neighborhood is a crime against certain gangs, under their laws. You don't have to agree with them, or accept them, to be killed by them. But if you want to live, you should at least be aware of them. Human nature and the human element is real. And it can and will kill.

Brigade XO wrote:In this line of discussion, divorce is a straw-man argument (well, make that TarBaby). It doesn't apply but is an interesting take on the subject.
I used it to make a point because a lot of the same human elements apply. It serves its purpose if it brings you around, at least to the entrance, to the right mindset.

Why is it that a wife, or girlfriend, really shouldn't have sex with a best friend, even after separation or divorce? Or with someone who has always been despised by the husband? After all, it isn't a crime for the ex to fall in love with the best friend, or enemy. No, it isn't. But it is a crime to human nature and human sensibilities. In fact, to some people, it is the worst possible thing a woman, or even a man can do. Talk about a scorned spouse that will kill the wife and her new man! For what? "For rubbing his face in the worst possible shit you can do to him, in his mind!"

Crimes of passion are not committed against the law. They are committed against people! The crime is so serious that it will get someone stabbed 99 times long after the victim was dead!

20M Beowulfans dead sounds like a crime of passion.

phillies wrote:Second, it would interesting to learn whether the League has a crime "treason" and if so what it is defined to be. There are bits of the American definition being slipped into this argument, with no textev that I recall that the definition is relevant.
You are being tossed around in the boat of truth by the raging rapids again. The definition of treason to be used is the universal one accepted by specific people. Wherever, or whoever they are. If the Mandarins feel it was treason, then to the Mandarins it was treason. Beowulf should heed that. They certainly knew the gorilla would perceive it that way. It isn't about rights, legalities or Constitutions. Crimes of passion are made between peoples!

phillies wrote:The notion that Beowulf committed treason appears unlikely to have merit. They appear to have moved to rpevent actions that plausibly are crimes in the League, such as waging a a war of aggression, form being committed. If Filaretta's command deck had not been sabotaged, Beowulf would have succeeded in preventing an illegal war. While ti has been years since I read the book in question, I do not recall that it was specified that it was the Beowulf government that activated the extremely hidden back channel, as opposed to some lower-level person doing so. But perhaps I have forgotten.

With respect to casualties, 20 million people being killed is a bad thing, but relative to casualties that some countries endured in World War 2 without surrendering, including countries that were on the winning side, 20 million dead is rather minimal.

My point is that it has merit to the Mandarins and the gorilla they control. Dead right or dead wrong guys. We must drive for the other idiots on the highway of life as well. I'm hearing my mother's teachings...

"We must be mindful of others!"


phillies wrote:We would of course need the League Constitution, all of it, which we do not have, but I do not believe that your argument holds water.

First, in our world at least, crimes are crimes by people. We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime. The notion that Beowulf as a planet can commit treason makes no more sense than the claim that Luxembourg can commit treason, at least in terms of current law. When at the end of World War 2 Germans were punished for crimes and executed, a recycle of the World War One War Crimes trials that people tend to forget, it was individual military officers, individual government officials, and one (that I recall) private citizen who were variously tried for crimes against humanity and/or crimes against peace, convicted, and executed. Germany was not tried,.

Second, it would interesting to learn whether the League has a crime "treason" and if so what it is defined to be. There are bits of the American definition being slipped into this argument, with no textev that I recall that the definition is relevant.

The notion that Beowulf committed treason appears unlikely to have merit. They appear to have moved to rpevent actions that plausibly are crimes in the League, such as waging a a war of aggression, form being committed. If Filaretta's command deck had not been sabotaged, Beowulf would have succeeded in preventing an illegal war. While ti has been years since I read the book in question, I do not recall that it was specified that it was the Beowulf government that activated the extremely hidden back channel, as opposed to some lower-level person doing so. But perhaps I have forgotten.

With respect to casualties, 20 million people being killed is a bad thing, but relative to casualties that some countries endured in World War 2 without surrendering, including countries that were on the winning side, 20 million dead is rather minimal.
cthia wrote:
Dca wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.


How did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:49 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12974
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
LEAGUE CONSTITUTION


WE ARE THE MANDARINS.

That is the gist of it.


If you want it all...


We Are The Mandarins
Queen

I've paid my dues
Time after time
I've done my sentence
But committed no crime
And bad mistakes
I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through
(And I need to go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
I've taken my bows
And my curtain calls
You brought me fame and fortune and everything that goes with it
I thank you all
But it's been no bed of roses
No pleasure cruise
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I ain't gonna lose
(And I need just go on and on, and on, and on)
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins of the world
We are the Mandarins, my friends
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the Mandarins
We are the Mandarins
No time for losers
'Cause we are the Mandarins
ldwechsler wrote:Nice parody. The thing is that in a sense you are right. The Mandarins run the League.

But I bet that is not in the Constitution. Take a look at the UN and its bylaws, etc. (I'm not certain it actually has a Constitution). There are all sorts of nice things: there are guarantees of freedom of speech (and a few years ago it agreed that any anti-religious speech (read anti-Islamic) was forbidden. There are all sorts of things that are guaranteed and ignored.

For the League it was worse. First of all, it was far older. Second, each planet to a large degree runs itself (Terra MIGHT BE an exception) if it is a full member. But the bureaucracy rules.

So, officially the Mandarins don't really quite exist. We've had it somewhere in text that I think it was O'Hanrahan who gave them that name. And remember who she works for. I would guess the figurehead leaders generally got the credit/blame for things they had no voice in.

That might be the most interesting change. People are now looking at the real decision makers. That could create even more changes if/when the whole system begins to collapse.


It is in the Mandarins' [C c]onstitution.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:08 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12974
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

It is ironic that Beowulf warned the Manties that the juggernaut was coming but the Manties didn't warn Beowulf that sharing that bit of inside information would also mean the juggernaut would be coming. It is what a true friend would do.

Of course, Beowulf should have known.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:58 pm

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:29 pm

cthia wrote:It is ironic that Beowulf warned the Manties that the juggernaut was coming but the Manties didn't warn Beowulf that sharing that bit of inside information would also mean the juggernaut would be coming. It is what a true friend would do.

Of course, Beowulf should have known.



IIRC (dubious at best), Manticore did warn them, even offered to set SDs around near the hyper limit. Was mentioned during the Royal Wedding. It was the decision of the Planetary Board of Directors to not accept the aid because it would give the appearance of coercion to the coming plebescite.

The Government of Beowulf took its chances, gambling that the installation of Mycroft would arrive before Battle Fleet. They tossed the dice and came up a cropper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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