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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:27 pm

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Somehow I must have missed a part where the SLN had done an analysis of attacking the WHJ through the most heavily defended terminus (the Junction it self).

Lets see, Manticore had been activly fighting the PRH for 20 odd years and prior to that had fortified the Junction. By the time the SLN had been told to attack the Manticore system and dispatches both Filerta's massive fleet and the "supporting" fleet that is supposed to charge through the Sigma Draconis wormhole and bolster Filerta, you would think that somebody in SLN ONI might have conducted some sort of research and observations of just what was guarding the Junction.
That would be long before Lacoon I. You know, SLN intelegnce (I know that sounds odd) freighters with really good suite of passive sensors making transits and passing back the data gathered to ONI. Ok, so SLN ONI is apparently willfully ingnoring anything they are being sent, presumably under orders from somewhere, but how much actual optical observation and passive sensor work is required to know that there are litteraly hundreds of fortresses which replaced the original tasking of capital ships to guard the Junction?
Where are they? In a active duty/on station, cycly out to a rest and replenisment rotation such that there are massive number of fortresses and clouds of mines (though the SLN has apparently no concept of missle pods) at any given time within CONVENTIONAL SLN MISSLE RANGE of the arrival/departure lanes for each of the known termini.
How many missles does it take to funtionaly destroy a SLN SD? What happens when you seed the perimeter of each lane with remote controlled mines? How long is a ship vulnerable to attack having just tranited through a wormhole? How many of those forts are WITHIN ENERGY RANGE of where ships have to appear.
Meat grinder doesn't begin to cover it.
So, other than the Alignment looking to get the entire "relief force" and it's ammuntion freighters and troopships blown to debries fields, just how many of that force of SDs does the SLN think is an acceptable loss ratio even before one of them gets to get target aquitions on RMN ships/fortresses?
Do they expect the Juntion Defence Force (which is primarily Forts, the SLN doesn't consider even a cloud of LACs any concern at all) to have suddenly abandoned the Junction in respnce to Raging Justice even though it is unlikely that they would be able to have ANY EFFECT against the SLN warships before said SLN ships were expected to smash their way into Mantiocore (at least ) orbit and demand surrender of the system?

Though we aren't shown it, it is more likely that the whole posturing and pre-placement of the "relief force" was primarily part of the attempt to cut Beowulf out of the herd of SLN cows and then punish them. The relief force was a sacrificial decoy in any case, it wouldn't have survived the forced transit (word would have been passed even if they suddenly dropped out of hyperspace right on the limit of the Junction as Astro Control reported the massive appearance via the stream of ships already in the queue and at least one courier that was thrown to whaterver the head of the quque was when it got there.
The Mandarins AND SLN knew the whole plan had been leaked. So they were sending in the relief force as a manufactured justification for what they were planning to do not only Manticore but to Beowulf as well. The Solly Admiral was at least bright enough to decide not to commit suicide when the RMN fleet dropped stealth.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:17 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Somehow I must have missed a part where the SLN had done an analysis of attacking the WHJ through the most heavily defended terminus (the Junction it self).

Lets see, Manticore had been activly fighting the PRH for 20 odd years and prior to that had fortified the Junction. By the time the SLN had been told to attack the Manticore system and dispatches both Filerta's massive fleet and the "supporting" fleet that is supposed to charge through the Sigma Draconis wormhole and bolster Filerta, you would think that somebody in SLN ONI might have conducted some sort of research and observations of just what was guarding the Junction.

That would be long before Lacoon I. You know, SLN intelegnce (I know that sounds odd) freighters with really good suite of passive sensors making transits and passing back the data gathered to ONI. Ok, so SLN ONI is apparently willfully ingnoring anything they are being sent, presumably under orders from somewhere, but how much actual optical observation and passive sensor work is required to know that there are litteraly hundreds of fortresses which replaced the original tasking of capital ships to guard the Junction?
Where are they? In a active duty/on station, cycly out to a rest and replenisment rotation such that there are massive number of fortresses and clouds of mines (though the SLN has apparently no concept of missle pods) at any given time within CONVENTIONAL SLN MISSLE RANGE of the arrival/departure lanes for each of the known termini.
How many missles does it take to funtionaly destroy a SLN SD? What happens when you seed the perimeter of each lane with remote controlled mines? How long is a ship vulnerable to attack having just tranited through a wormhole? How many of those forts are WITHIN ENERGY RANGE of where ships have to appear.
Meat grinder doesn't begin to cover it.
So, other than the Alignment looking to get the entire "relief force" and it's ammuntion freighters and troopships blown to debries fields, just how many of that force of SDs does the SLN think is an acceptable loss ratio even before one of them gets to get target aquitions on RMN ships/fortresses?
Do they expect the Juntion Defence Force (which is primarily Forts, the SLN doesn't consider even a cloud of LACs any concern at all) to have suddenly abandoned the Junction in respnce to Raging Justice even though it is unlikely that they would be able to have ANY EFFECT against the SLN warships before said SLN ships were expected to smash their way into Mantiocore (at least ) orbit and demand surrender of the system?

Though we aren't shown it, it is more likely that the whole posturing and pre-placement of the "relief force" was primarily part of the attempt to cut Beowulf out of the herd of SLN cows and then punish them. The relief force was a sacrificial decoy in any case, it wouldn't have survived the forced transit (word would have been passed even if they suddenly dropped out of hyperspace right on the limit of the Junction as Astro Control reported the massive appearance via the stream of ships already in the queue and at least one courier that was thrown to whaterver the head of the quque was when it got there.
The Mandarins AND SLN knew the whole plan had been leaked. So they were sending in the relief force as a manufactured justification for what they were planning to do not only Manticore but to Beowulf as well. The Solly Admiral was at least bright enough to decide not to commit suicide when the RMN fleet dropped stealth.

Your entire post is a whale of a mouthful, but concentrating on the bolded part. I also said how stupid it was of the League not to have seen the significance of the wormhole junctions long long ago in a galaxy where they could have seized them long before the upstart neobarbs could have used the junctions against them. Or why they hadn't at least drawn up some attacking through wormhole tactics - which is impossible to do without realistic intel of current weapons. Or how they took it serious that an opponent had truly breached those defenses with the Yawata Strike, but not taking such a potent opponent itself serious.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by stewart   » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:01 pm

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cthia wrote:[
Your entire post is a whale of a mouthful, but concentrating on the bolded part. I also said how stupid it was of the League not to have seen the significance of the wormhole junctions long long ago in a galaxy where they could have seized them long before the upstart neobarbs could have used the junctions against them. Or why they hadn't at least drawn up some attacking through wormhole tactics - which is impossible to do without realistic intel of current weapons. Or how they took it serious that an opponent had truly breached those defenses with the Yawata Strike, but not taking such a potent opponent itself serious.


------------

Essentially -- the SL/SLN actions are an example of "assumed knowledge"
Remember Kevin Usher's adages "The map is not the territory, the file is not the man"
There is no substitute for current/timely, accurate research on a potential opponent.
SLN ONI has shown a ingrained habit of researching their own sources rather than looking at the current, accurate information, whether it is the Manties and Haven or conditions in their own territories in the Verge, to their own detriment.
The SL public is blindly following on, believing what they are (or were) told. This last "may" change if the core worlds get current, accurate information, such as during debates/discussions for a new constitution.

-- Stewart
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:55 pm

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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:[
Your entire post is a whale of a mouthful, but concentrating on the bolded part. I also said how stupid it was of the League not to have seen the significance of the wormhole junctions long long ago in a galaxy where they could have seized them long before the upstart neobarbs could have used the junctions against them. Or why they hadn't at least drawn up some attacking through wormhole tactics - which is impossible to do without realistic intel of current weapons. Or how they took it serious that an opponent had truly breached those defenses with the Yawata Strike, but not taking such a potent opponent itself serious.


------------

Essentially -- the SL/SLN actions are an example of "assumed knowledge"
Remember Kevin Usher's adages "The map is not the territory, the file is not the man"
There is no substitute for current/timely, accurate research on a potential opponent.
SLN ONI has shown a ingrained habit of researching their own sources rather than looking at the current, accurate information, whether it is the Manties and Haven or conditions in their own territories in the Verge, to their own detriment.
The SL public is blindly following on, believing what they are (or were) told. This last "may" change if the core worlds get current, accurate information, such as during debates/discussions for a new constitution.

-- Stewart



Control the sources of information and you control people's minds. When the top bosses want you to believe something and keep info from you, you will make errors. And it happens everywhere.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:55 pm

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They don’t want to keep the info from subordinates, they want the information kept from them. And after they shoot enough messengers that’s what happens.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 8:46 am

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tlb wrote:So, no real change in your viewpoint, and certainly not in mine. This becomes another one of those things that you believe will be addressed in some indefinite date in the future of the Honorverse; like the SLN's "karmic" retribution against Beowulf.


After digesting UH, how can you deny the telltale signs of karma. I don't know what you have against her, but she plays no favorites. UH is loaded with professions of SL officers as well as the Mandarins that they believe Beowulf's actions are traitorous (they have a point), and that reprisals are a result of that. UH has so much content to support the claim of karma that I find it humorous to even dredge this topic back up. Heck, karma is broadcasting an all points bulletin in UH! Even Oravil Barregos of MARS knew what he was getting himself and his planet into. He knew the karma he was haphazardly summoning up. But, like Beowulf, he knew he had a firebreak in the Manties. Karma was threatening to spread itself amongst other stars, even beyond Hypatia. Although Beowulf herself was the author of some very stinky crap, that was upwind of karma.


I have never claimed any subject I broach in the Honorverse will be addressed in the future. Sometimes ya just gotta let sleeping dogs lie.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 7:51 pm

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Snipped and transplanted from the ramblings thread.

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Beowulf did order up a big fat bowl of karma. And, it seems that that karma was delivered in UH, instead of in the future. Technically, UH was the future. Although, the future may hold yet even more SL vengeance against its former family of traitors.

The problem with that statement is that the retribution came from the Mesan Alignment, not the Solarian League. In UH the Solarian League was more bark than bite (except for a few planets that were defenseless).

Perhaps you could chalk this one up to an earlier mess of karma arising from the argument with the Detweilers.

What argument would that be? Refresh my memory, please. In case I missed something.

Silver Bullet was the karma ordered up by Michelle's Tenth Fleet at Mesa. Though to be fair to Michelle, she couldn't have seen that coming. Therefore, that karma didn't "suit her." But the karma ordered up by Beowulf, did. That's not the same thing as saying Beowulf deserved it, but it suited her, because she knew full well what she was doing and what the interest was on the tab she was running up. Kick a quintet of mangy dogs controlling an angry gorilla and you're going to smell the breath of that angry gorilla breathing down your neck. It smells something like karma.

They were all bark and little bite, relatively speaking. But they did have teeth, and they did leave imprints. The bark at Hypatia was loud, and the bite marks wasn't as big as the dog it mimicked. But the heroic forces that was responsible for blunting the karma spewing from the SL ships carrying the "wild dogs with rabies," cost, what was that, 90 % of her people? In major systems, karma was blunted. But the recorded history of those other systems adversely affected by the karma created by Beowulf can't say the same. Neither can Beowulf herself. Had it not been for Beowulf's own karma, Silver Bullet might not have worked. For that reason alone, the karma Beowulf ordered from the League is synonymous with what the MA accomplished with Silver Bullet.

It was all initiated in Beowulf's courtyard, by Beowulf's own hand. Also, everyone began to see that Beowulf had to've been sipping traitorous tea with the enemy long before they imagined. Like that traitorous Ivaldi the weapons manufacturer. It all began at Beowulf and spread to the heavens. What happened at Beowulf was the karma it ordered coming home to roost. The fact that it enabled the MA to hide a Trojan horse in the mix is completely irrelevant. Can't fault the MA for catching the shipment already headed to Beowulf. Probably cheaper than way. It was certainly more efficient -- allowing for a bit of plausible deniability. And, the excrement that befell all of those hapless planets was the infection caught from the hazardous pus oozing from the sores of Beowulf's karma.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sun May 05, 2019 8:34 pm

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cthia wrote:What argument would that be? Refresh my memory, please. In case I missed something.

Silver Bullet was the karma ordered up by Michelle's Tenth Fleet at Mesa.
--snip--
In major systems, karma was blunted. But the recorded history of those other systems adversely affected by the karma created by Beowulf can't say the same. Neither can Beowulf herself. Had it not been for Beowulf's own karma, Silver Bullet might not have worked. For that reason alone, the karma Beowulf ordered from the League is synonymous with what the MA accomplished with Silver Bullet.
--snip--
It all began at Beowulf and spread to the heavens. What happened at Beowulf was the karma it ordered coming home to roost. The fact that it enabled the MA to hide a Trojan horse in the mix is completely irrelevant. Can't fault the MA for catching the shipment already headed to Beowulf. Probably cheaper than way. It was certainly more efficient -- allowing for a bit of plausible deniability.

The SLN striking out at defenseless planets was to prevent others from seceding or trading with the Grand Alliance, so it has a little plausibility to assign some blame to Beowulf. But it is a very strange karma that hurts others more than the one you claim deserved it.

But Silver Bullet's success had nothing to do with the SLN and all to do with the hatred of the Malign for Beowulf. The SLN was as surprised as anyone when that bullet was fired.

At Beowulf I believe the SLN killed 5000 people and destroyed a section of an assembly line. Do we know how many people and ships they lost to the system defense Apollo missiles? I expect that the SLN had a net loss on the exchange. It was only the Silver Bullets which allowed the SLN to accomplish as much as it did. Again, it is a very strange karma that hurts Beowulf's attacker more than Beowulf.

But to say that the Malign killing millions of people when their bombs destroyed three of Beowulf's orbitals is irrelevant is staggering and appalling. You asked what argument I said was at the bottom of this. It is the argument between the original Detweiler and the Beowulf medical establishment on human advancement through genetic manipulation, which caused him to leave and create Mesa, Manpower Incorporated, the Mesan Alignment and the Detweiler Plan. It is the workings of that plan which created the Havenite War and the incompetence of the Solarian League. Which then pushed Manticore and Haven to join in a Grand Alliance when the SLN tried to bully Manticore as they had done so many others after the Malign had engineered confrontations. Compared to the hatred of the Malign toward Beowulf, the feelings that the Mandarins and the SLN have toward Beowulf are nothing.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Mon May 06, 2019 9:08 pm

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tlb wrote:The SLN striking out at defenseless planets was to prevent others from seceding or trading with the Grand Alliance, so it has a little plausibility to assign some blame to Beowulf. But it is a very strange karma that hurts others more than the one you claim deserved it.
Why does that surprise you? Do you think karma can't have collateral damage as well? Yes, attacks oftentimes have more collateral damage than anything else. See current military history. Pray tell some of America's enemies, only collateral damage. However, you think the 46M people who died in Beowulf space was exceeded elsewhere? YES!, the MA attack was part of the same karma. It was a huge gorilla rolling against Beowulf. The angry ape had her own gravity well. Gravity that sucked in Silver Bullets along the way.

Go figure! Of course they were trying to prevent seceding and trading with the enemy! IN A TIME OF WAR!!! That's total bullshit. How'd you like it done to this country by its "allies?"

tlb wrote:But Silver Bullet's success had nothing to do with the SLN and all to do with the hatred of the Malign for Beowulf. The SLN was as surprised as anyone when that bullet was fired.
Not true. Textev plainly states that Silver Bullet probably would not have succeeded unless it was hidden behind the bright flares of SL wedges. Even Hamish figured out it was a diversion. The Bullets would have been spotted otherwise. The karma was delivered with free side orders -- like the complimentary fortune cookies given out by Chinese restaurants. I can guess what those fortunes were. . . "Only Silver Bullets can kill bloodsucking vampires."

It has everything to do with Beowulf. Beowulf started this whole thing. Every other would be defector -- in the eyes of the Mandarins and the jaded SL officers -- got the idea from Beowulf. Beowulf was leading them to the traitorous well to drink like pied pipers on a string. Do you think the Mandarins and the SL officers of paragon and virtue, think all of them trying to sneak out the backdoor at the same time was out of a sheer coincidence? Just like Oravil Barregos knew, paraphrasing "We are asking for trouble and putting a bull's-eye on our backs. But we must do it anyway." He knew they had to take a stand. But Beowulf was burning the candle at both ends.

At Beowulf I believe the SLN killed 5000 people and destroyed a section of an assembly line. Do we know how many people and ships they lost to the system defense Apollo missiles? I expect that the SLN had a net loss on the exchange. It was only the Silver Bullets which allowed the SLN to accomplish as much as it did. Again, it is a very strange karma that hurts Beowulf's attacker more than Beowulf.

It doesn't matter how many people or ships the SLN lost. They were running up a tab of their own with karma. Don't worry, she doesn't play favorites. So what, karma had help. I never claimed she wasn't a crafty bitch. Hurts Beowulf's attackers more than Beowulf? Ya gotta stop saying that, and using those cheap calculators.

tlb wrote:But to say that the Malign killing millions of people when their bombs destroyed three of Beowulf's orbitals is irrelevant is staggering and appalling.
You missed the mark. I said it is irrelevant what mechanism karma used to deliver her payload. She's a crafty old bitch who's been around since time eternal. She has connections and didn't want to call an Uber.

tlb wrote: You asked what argument I said was at the bottom of this. It is the argument between the original Detweiler and the Beowulf medical establishment on human advancement through genetic manipulation, which caused him to leave and create Mesa, Manpower Incorporated, the Mesan Alignment and the Detweiler Plan. It is the workings of that plan which created the Havenite War and the incompetence of the Solarian League. Which then pushed Manticore and Haven to join in a Grand Alliance when the SLN tried to bully Manticore as they had done so many others after the Malign had engineered confrontations. Compared to the hatred of the Malign toward Beowulf, the feelings that the Mandarins and the SLN have toward Beowulf are nothing.
Oh! That argument.

Well, I'll be double dipped in shit! You are absolutely correct. I had forgotten that order of karma. It is quite late on its delivery. Now we both know why karma refused to call a cheap Uber company again.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Mon May 06, 2019 9:33 pm

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tlb wrote:But Silver Bullet's success had nothing to do with the SLN and all to do with the hatred of the Malign for Beowulf. The SLN was as surprised as anyone when that bullet was fired.

cthia wrote:Not true. Textev plainly states that Silver Bullet probably would not have succeeded unless it was hidden behind the bright flares of SL wedges. Even Hamish figured out it was a diversion. The Bullets would have been spotted otherwise. The karma was delivered with free side orders -- like the complimentary fortune cookies given by Chinese restaurants. I can guess what those fortunes were. . . "Only Silver Bullets can kill bloodsucking vampires."

You have confused the Silver Bullets with Hasta. Hasta are the recon drones with a missile stage added that came in disguised by the noise of the other recon drones. They are the ones fired by the SLN that killed about 5000 people and damaged an assembly line.

The silver Bullets are the Malign grasers that were dumped out of a freighter in the Beowulf system as much as a month ahead of the SLN attack. They are the ones that sought out and destroyed Mycroft as the defense system was trying to go active.

The fact remains that the massive damage delivered to Beowulf was due to the Malign bombs that destroyed the orbitals. That had nothing to do with any karma Beowulf accrued by trying to leave the Solarian League. The Malign wanted everyone out of the League, that was a big part of the plan. They probably even gamed out that Beowulf might be one of the first to leave. Beowulf was hurt badly because of Malign hatred that had been festering for centuries, not because of the League.
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