Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], John Prigent and 13 guests

BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:37 am

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

ldwechsler wrote:Has anyone worked on the notion that in some ways almost all of us are right?

Yes, if you commit a major genocide, you better be certain the other side gets scared. Note the Holocaust. The Germans did what they wanted and kept records. The records helped imprison at least a few.

I don't think the mandarins planned a genocide. They wanted major destruction...teach Beowulf a lesson. And, of course, their could have been tit for tat. Could really have been had Honor Harrington not pulled back.

And yes the situation had changed. Remember back a whole group of books ago and the Sollies seemed invincible. But they went down really fast. Times do change.

So all of this is true. Times changed and you do have to watch out for the other fellow.

One thing it would be interesting to know: what will happens when Hyacinth and a few others sue the League for damages?

cthia wrote:Again, ultimately it isn't about right or wrong. Ultimately, Beowulf was right to finally try to do something to get out of the mob. Her timing is suspect and she made some bad decisions along the way.

"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

tlb wrote:Do we believe that the Detweilers had contingency plans that would result in damage to Beowulf; no matter what they attempted to do? Because they have their hooks sunk deepest into the SLN, it seems reasonable that they could contrive an incident which would be augmented; the same as the incident was with Byng. Not just the plan that may have unfolded in UH, but others in case Beowulf tried to do something else; such as staying in the League to block a formal war declaration.

PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.


cthia wrote:That could very well be the case. In fact, blood in Detweiler eyes for Beowulf is more than a possibility. However, the fact that Beowulf made serious mistakes against their own founding will not change. If 20M die as a result of the SLN and it was intentional then Karma paid her debt.

If 20M dead is as a result of MA meddling, but their meddling was made possible because of SLN idiots who were in system, then Karma delivered her payload.

If 20M die directly by MA meddling, and the SLN is not in system and their ignorance could not have been used as patsies or puppets, then Karma has nothing to do with it and the blood of 20M people is all on Malign hands.

The SLN has no business in system under the circumstances, knowing full well that it and the RMN are totally incompatible and apt to spontaneously combust if brought together.

Having now read UH we know the answer: the blood is all on the Malign hands; both the blood of the citizens of Beowulf and the blood of all the SLN personnel who were tricked into false beliefs.

We also know that Mycroft suffers from some of the same problems that Moriarty had.

PS. Although it would not have helped in the conditions that prevailed, why would orbital living and working spaces lack the ability to generate a spherical side wall? What about shielding from meteors or traffic accidents?
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:12 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10470
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Has anyone worked on the notion that in some ways almost all of us are right?

Yes, if you commit a major genocide, you better be certain the other side gets scared. Note the Holocaust. The Germans did what they wanted and kept records. The records helped imprison at least a few.

I don't think the mandarins planned a genocide. They wanted major destruction...teach Beowulf a lesson. And, of course, their could have been tit for tat. Could really have been had Honor Harrington not pulled back.

And yes the situation had changed. Remember back a whole group of books ago and the Sollies seemed invincible. But they went down really fast. Times do change.

So all of this is true. Times changed and you do have to watch out for the other fellow.

One thing it would be interesting to know: what will happens when Hyacinth and a few others sue the League for damages?

cthia wrote:Again, ultimately it isn't about right or wrong. Ultimately, Beowulf was right to finally try to do something to get out of the mob. Her timing is suspect and she made some bad decisions along the way.

"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

tlb wrote:Do we believe that the Detweilers had contingency plans that would result in damage to Beowulf; no matter what they attempted to do? Because they have their hooks sunk deepest into the SLN, it seems reasonable that they could contrive an incident which would be augmented; the same as the incident was with Byng. Not just the plan that may have unfolded in UH, but others in case Beowulf tried to do something else; such as staying in the League to block a formal war declaration.

PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.


cthia wrote:That could very well be the case. In fact, blood in Detweiler eyes for Beowulf is more than a possibility. However, the fact that Beowulf made serious mistakes against their own founding will not change. If 20M die as a result of the SLN and it was intentional then Karma paid her debt.

If 20M dead is as a result of MA meddling, but their meddling was made possible because of SLN idiots who were in system, then Karma delivered her payload.

If 20M die directly by MA meddling, and the SLN is not in system and their ignorance could not have been used as patsies or puppets, then Karma has nothing to do with it and the blood of 20M people is all on Malign hands.

The SLN has no business in system under the circumstances, knowing full well that it and the RMN are totally incompatible and apt to spontaneously combust if brought together.

Having now read UH we know the answer: the blood is all on the Malign hands; both the blood of the citizens of Beowulf and the blood of all the SLN personnel who were tricked into false beliefs.

We also know that Mycroft suffers from some of the same problems that Moriarty had.

PS. Although it would not have helped in the conditions that prevailed, why would orbital living and working spaces lack the ability to generate a spherical side wall? What about shielding from meteors or traffic accidents?


You know, that's a bit of a spoiler. I don't suppose there was any chance you were going to leave that discovery up to those of us who still haven't read it? I can't say I don't understand your actions, given this thread. I'm sure it wouldn't be decent of me to assume you were delighted to find out which of these possibilities were true. But I certainly won't bet against it. LOL

Do allow me to get back to you when I've had a chance to read it for myself, not that I have any doubts about how you or anyone else absorb the facts.

::fingers crossed::

But do remember, Beowulf's Karma could be asleep-n-beauty.* As opined upstream.

*See Harrington Doctrine

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:06 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:You know, that's a bit of a spoiler. I don't suppose there was any chance you were going to leave that discovery up to those of us who still haven't read it? I can't say I don't understand your actions, given this thread. I'm sure it wouldn't be decent of me to assume you were delighted to find out which of these possibilities were true. But I certainly won't bet against it. LOL

Do allow me to get back to you when I've had a chance to read it for myself, not that I have any doubts about how you or anyone else absorb the facts.

::fingers crossed::

But do remember, Beowulf's Karma could be asleep-n-beauty.* As opined upstream.

*See Harrington Doctrine

You are right; I was thoughtless and I am sorry. All I can say in defense is that I did not say what happened to people at Beowulf.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:39 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:You know, that's a bit of a spoiler. I don't suppose there was any chance you were going to leave that discovery up to those of us who still haven't read it? I can't say I don't understand your actions, given this thread. I'm sure it wouldn't be decent of me to assume you were delighted to find out which of these possibilities were true. But I certainly won't bet against it. LOL

Do allow me to get back to you when I've had a chance to read it for myself, not that I have any doubts about how you or anyone else absorb the facts.

::fingers crossed::

But do remember, Beowulf's Karma could be asleep-n-beauty.* As opined upstream.

*See Harrington Doctrine

You are right; I was thoughtless and I am sorry. All I can say in defense is that I did not say what happened to people at Beowulf.



It DOES get tricky here. We've been talking UH for a while because of the eArc. And some of us read the final version. So it is not surprising there are snerks. It becomes very difficult to discuss anything about the book.

Could there be a way to separate topics by whether or not they allow snerks? I mean, we have people who have been writing about the book, often very wisely, and then we find out they haven't read it yet.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:44 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:You know, that's a bit of a spoiler. I don't suppose there was any chance you were going to leave that discovery up to those of us who still haven't read it? I can't say I don't understand your actions, given this thread. I'm sure it wouldn't be decent of me to assume you were delighted to find out which of these possibilities were true. But I certainly won't bet against it. LOL

Do allow me to get back to you when I've had a chance to read it for myself, not that I have any doubts about how you or anyone else absorb the facts.

::fingers crossed::

But do remember, Beowulf's Karma could be asleep-n-beauty.* As opined upstream.

*See Harrington Doctrine

tlb wrote:You are right; I was thoughtless and I am sorry. All I can say in defense is that I did not say what happened to people at Beowulf.

ldwechsler wrote:It DOES get tricky here. We've been talking UH for a while because of the eArc. And some of us read the final version. So it is not surprising there are snerks. It becomes very difficult to discuss anything about the book.

Could there be a way to separate topics by whether or not they allow snerks? I mean, we have people who have been writing about the book, often very wisely, and then we find out they haven't read it yet.

There are threads that have "Spoiler" in the title and that was where I should have put the remark about Mycroft.
The other two things I said are a bit murkier: to say that the blood of citizens of Beowulf is on the hands on Malign is so general that it actually says nothing about UH and there is a good chance that cthia will disagree in any case. Finally the remark about living and working spaces needing a spherical sidewall against accidents or meteors was unartfully phrased, but could have been said at any time and should not impact the reading of UH.
I will try to do better and I hope that my mistakes will not spoil anyone's enjoyment.
Top

Return to Honorverse