BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:I don't know how to break this to you all. But just like in another thread, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Indeed Bob. You have a point, many of them. The post is well laid out and articulated and I agree with you all. Except that...

You are making the same mistake as many do when I argue a stance. You are making it personal about me.

I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position. Also, I understand the difference of the League compared to the U.S., and member states and allies. However, not one of our allies, who would object to us attacking North Korea, would turn traitorous. They may refuse to join in, but that would be the limit of their objection.

Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined. When the League went to Beowulf and laid its cards on the table, perhaps Beowulf could have been conscientious objectors. But it must end there. I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view. Not Beowulf's, not the RMN's, not RFC's readers or cthia. Because the punishment meted out onto Beowulf, will not come from either of us. It will come from the SLN.

Cthia is not arguing any legal or moral high grounds that the League has to stand on, for cthia's sake. Nor does he charge a positively, absolute transgression in either area.* However, I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!

If there had been an EE violation and the SLN was dispatched to deal with the devil, it would have been treasonous of Beowulf to alert the devils the gorilla was coming. Just because they don't believe in a cause is no free pass to turn into rats.

If Grayson or the RMN did the same thing to each other, it would be traitorous. Erewhon was a free agent working with the RMN. That wasn't the same relationship. The same loyalty was not unspoken or implied.

The relationship of Beowulf with the League was unspoken and implied. Certainly in the SLN's mind, where it counts... since Beowulf was leaving and ratting the SLN out, not RFC or any of his readers. There is an 800# difference. If Beowulf would have sold the RMN out, Beowulf would have been labeled traitors even though there was no legal papers between the two.

* What cthia personally thinks is that Beowulf handled it wrongly. They know exactly what type of entity their previous masters are. If they were going to alert the RMN that the juggernaut was coming, it should also have alerted the juggernaut—full of innocent officers following orders—that the Manties knew they were coming. Man up and admit "WE TOLD THEM. THEY ARE PREPARED TO RECEIVE YOU!"

That is where cthia draws the line.

filbert wrote:Seems to me that the legal situation of Beowulf changed drastically with Manticore's (and, I assume, Haven's) formal declaration of war on the Solarian League.

Personally, I find all the spin-doctoring of events prior to the GL's declaration of war on the SL to be futile and tedious.

In the eyes of the Mandarins, Beowulf was obviously treasonous even before Filereta's disaster. The Mandarins were equally treasonous to the Beowulf Board of Directors and most of its population. Yawn.

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!

filbert wrote:Seems to me that the legal situation of Beowulf changed drastically with Manticore's (and, I assume, Haven's) formal declaration of war on the Solarian League.

Personally, I find all the spin-doctoring of events prior to the GL's declaration of war on the SL to be futile and tedious.

In the eyes of the Mandarins, Beowulf was obviously treasonous even before Filereta's disaster. The Mandarins were equally treasonous to the Beowulf Board of Directors and most of its population. Yawn.

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!

pappilon wrote:

filbert wrote:Snip

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.[/b]

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!

Bolding mine.

Thank you for the concise clarification. I would remind you that the events bolded are not separate incidents but rather the continuing unwinding of the effort by the Mandarins to pre-emptively defang Beowulf in the parlaiment (or whatever they call it).
The mandarins called for the vote, Beowulf announced that they were seceding. They warned Manticore and also notified Haven of the impending attack. THEN they refused to allow the SLN to use the junction to make a second invasion of Manticore. So now its merely in for a penny, in for a Euro. The Mandarins started it, it blew up in their faces, now they're doubling down on a busted hand.

Spin it any way you want, it is a gross misuse of language to call it treason. There still has not been that acual vote on the questiion of secession. Because it hasn't happened, The SL cannot6 accuse Beowulf of treason (based on published textev) for notifying Manticore of the invasion because they have not yet discovered who informed on them.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A promising start. And, potential trade partners, for the GA.

Rob

Eagleeye wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A promising start. And, potential trade partners, for the GA.

Rob

Or - potential targets for Operation Buccaneer ...

cthia wrote:What I don't get, is on the one hand everybody talks about the "legality" of Beowulf to leave the League. Conversely, you also speak of the "illegality" of the League acting like there's a war, without no formal Declaration of War.

On the other hand, you bastardize John Harrington's quote, saying history is to be written by the more powerful combatant who can plagiarize without recompense. But then you fail to allow that same opportunity and concept to fall upon the heads of the League. The League was trying to determine history and earn the right to write that history from their POV. Why shouldn't the Mandarins have gone for a head cutting attack if they saw an opening? They knew what their long term expansionistic goals were anyway. Certainly if they had been successful, adding the MWJ to the League's assets would have been gargantuan! And every Old Earth citizen in the street would have been celebrating.

The League was just acting out as if they were the huge John Harrington fans and bastardizers that they are. They've been bastardizing Harrington's quote for centuries. Did Beowulf think they'd want to stop just because they married quite a few of them?

"Puhlease!" says the arrogant Solly admiral!

Beowulf has been a part of the bullying for centuries inasmuch as they were aware of it. I commend them for wanting to leave the League. But they waited too long. They needed to get out before the gorilla dragged them down with them. They failed in that regard. Beowulf should have gotten out long before the League got itself into a war it couldn't win. As it stands, Beowulf is a day late and a war short.



Note:
When I speak of the League, oftentimes I am referencing the Mandarins. The Mandarins are the League, as far as who is running it and who controls the gorilla's strings. As far as the Mandarins are concerned, for centuries.

cthia wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.

Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

Vince wrote:If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:

ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:

Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.

Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.