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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Vince   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:09 am

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cthia wrote:On any given day the SLN would have lost to the RMN. In 1001 straight battles they would have found 1001 Ways To Die. But on one particular day, they might have won. We can't know for certain if they couldn't have defeated the RMN on that day. We don't know what hand the meddling Demon Murphy might have dealt the RMN. A large chunk of Home Fleet off exercising. A mistake transiting too large a force through the junction from Manticore to Beowulf, shutting the terminus down leaving Filareta with a piece of cake. The Salamander away. Yatta yatta yatta. We don't really know. And because of Beowulf we never will.

At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."

It should be noted that blind obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.

In the United States armed forces, if you carry out an illegal order, you can be court-martialed and convicted for doing so.

It was also established, at the Nuremberg Trials, that obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:09 am

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Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:23 am

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I don't know how to break this to you all. But just like in another thread, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Indeed Bob. You have a point, many of them. The post is well laid out and articulated and I agree with you all. Except that...

You are making the same mistake as many do when I argue a stance. You are making it personal about me.

I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position. Also, I understand the difference of the League compared to the U.S., and member states and allies. However, not one of our allies, who would object to us attacking North Korea, would turn traitorous. They may refuse to join in, but that would be the limit of their objection.

Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined. When the League went to Beowulf and laid its cards on the table, perhaps Beowulf could have been conscientious objectors. But it must end there. I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view. Not Beowulf's, not the RMN's, not RFC's readers or cthia. Because the punishment meted out onto Beowulf, will not come from either of us. It will come from the SLN.

Cthia is not arguing any legal or moral high grounds that the League has to stand on, for cthia's sake. Nor does he charge a positively, absolute transgression in either area.* However, I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!

If there had been an EE violation and the SLN was dispatched to deal with the devil, it would have been treasonous of Beowulf to alert the devils the gorilla was coming. Just because they don't believe in a cause is no free pass to turn into rats.

If Grayson or the RMN did the same thing to each other, it would be traitorous. Erewhon was a free agent working with the RMN. That wasn't the same relationship. The same loyalty was not unspoken or implied.

The relationship of Beowulf with the League was unspoken and implied. Certainly in the SLN's mind, where it counts... since Beowulf was leaving and ratting the SLN out, not RFC or any of his readers. There is an 800# difference. If Beowulf would have sold the RMN out, Beowulf would have been labeled traitors even though there was no legal papers between the two.

* What cthia personally thinks is that Beowulf handled it wrongly. They know exactly what type of entity their previous masters are. If they were going to alert the RMN that the juggernaut was coming, it should also have alerted the juggernaut—full of innocent officers following orders—that the Manties knew they were coming. Man up and admit "WE TOLD THEM. THEY ARE PREPARED TO RECEIVE YOU!"

That is where cthia draws the line.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:35 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Vince   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:56 am

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cthia wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.


Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:49 am

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cthia wrote:There was no declaration of war.



But.

Operation Raging Justice was the SLN's declaration of survival. They were trying to preempt the situation they're in now. A quick, unexpected thrust. And who's to say it wouldn't have worked? Had it not been for Beowulf!
Given the Manticore system defenses!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A few hundred obsolete SDs dropping in at the hyper limit would have been dead meat to all the MDM pods around Sphinx and Manticore even if 8th fleet wasn't still hanging around assigned as Home Fleet.

Raging Justice had no chance of taking over Manticore and only limited chances of causing serious harm before dying. What lack of notice would have meant was the Manticore wouldn't have been able to put on the show of force that almost succeeded in forcing their surrender without firing a shot and which still kept their destruction from being total. If rushed they may not have had time to temper their system defense response and would have to err on the side of making sure the large number of ships couldn't be a continued threat.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:05 pm

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Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.


Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.[/quote]

I doubt an Eridani violation was ever really planned. That would presume that people in the League were actually insane. There is no way any plan like that could stay hidden.

More likely, escalations could happen. The destruction of the Yawata strike might not be considered a violation because they hit orbital stations. The falling junk did most of the damage.

But even MAlign did not want to attack the planets.

The Mandarins are slime but not insane. If Beowulf were destroyed by an Eridani violation, there would be immediate trouble...and no defense.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:26 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
The Mandarins are slime but not insane. If Beowulf were destroyed by an Eridani violation, there would be immediate trouble...and no defense.


The League has already passed that particular Rubicon. Or, rather, they've always used the 'insurrection against planetary government' rule to excuse their Eridani violations. Of course, they get to pick the government. :D

In this case, they'll probably use the brand new, shiny 'insurrection against the Solarian League' rule, pick an Admiral as dense as most Solarian Admirals to demand Beowulf's surren- and launch a few KEWs.

Any bets that one of those KEWs will land right on top of Uncle Jacques?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:41 pm

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cthia wrote:.

Cthia is not arguing any legal or moral high grounds that the League has to stand on, for cthia's sake. Nor does he charge a positively, absolute transgression in either area.* However, I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!




Speaking in the 3rd person is interesting. Were you meaing to do that?

Beowulf was notified of an illegal activity planed and being launced against a long time close trade and cultual allied Soverign Star Nation just as Beowulf is a Soverign Star Nation.
Beowulf is a member of the Solarian League, not a subordiate entity.
Beowulf passed this information along to the target (and others) and the League was notified- in great and specific detail- that Manticore knew about the plan- an illegal attack by SLN on the Manticore Home System- and the leadership of the League- it's unelected perminant undersecretaries plus it's diplomats refused to either acknowlege the thing existed nor stop it. They could have stopped it. The Manticore Ambasidor specificaly offered to transport-using the wormhole Junction- an accredited and authrorized member of the League to Manticore to deliver such instructions that would be nessisary to have Fillerta stand down. That was no "carefully crafted and polite diplomatic note" that Carmichale delivered to the League. It was also not a declaration of war. It was, however, a blunt statement of fact and unmasking of criminal activity of a scale far exceeding anything even OFS had done over years in the Verge. And it clearly stated the result of following through on the planned attack on the Manticore Home System.

Beowulf was not only doing the right thing by refusing the SLN task force access to the Sigma Draconis terminus, it was attempting to prevent the Commander of that task force from violating the League Constitution, both in calling on Beowulf to do something is should not do EXCEPT in time of Declaired War and from committing an act of War on Manticore when the League HAD NOT VOTED TO DECLARE WAR AND WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF AT LEAST BYNG AND CRANDALL which Manticore was still willing to deal with at the "diplomatic incident" while trying to avoid further hostilities.

The entire plan was made and in motion before Monica. At that point there was no "retribution" needed for things that not only hadn't happened yet but that also needent have happened like the incdent with Byng and then Crandall attacking Spindle.

Yes, we "know" about the Alignment. The Mandarins and so many others in the actual leadership of the SL also know about the massive corruption and graft and are seemingly all bound to break anything that rebuffs or challanges their use of the League to get their way.

Beowulf is leaving, that's another thing the leadership of the SL can't have happen. The whole rotten structure will start to fall if one piece decides to live up to the lost ideals of the League instead of rolling in the slime.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:02 pm

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1) Violation of the League Constitution.
2) Threats to attack CITIZENS of the League.
3) Threats to hold League Citizens at gunpoint in Violation of said League Constitution.
4) Deliberate Violation of Orders from League Foreign Minister.
5) Secret Orders from SLN Commander without notification to Defense Minister (his direct boss) or Prime Minister No notification of Civil Government at the behest of Foreign Powers.

All acts of TREASON by Rajampet.

You are not arguing the League's position but rather the Mesan Alignment's position and the corrupt few who have illegally acted beyond their powers. You are arguing the position of a traitor (Rajampet) and 5 under-secretaries acting covertly to avoid the loss of their own power.

Re-read the parts where even Kolokoltsov realizes that it isn't legal. Every one of their plans is to avoid an internal constitutional crisis and the loss of their power. The problem they had was that they had no legal power to act and they had to avoid someone realizing that. If the Elected assembly realized what they were doing there was a real danger that they would all lose their places.

On top of this Kingsford wonders about Rajapet's actions. Like whether the Mandarins even knew about Crandall's deployment to the Macintosh system. Recall that after Byng's fuckup Rajampet was ordered not to deploy units to the area and make things worse. I seem to recall him (Kingsford) questioning just how Byng was transferred to command a Frontier Fleet task group.

He (Rajampet) was in the pay of a foreign power who wants the destruction of the league. That is the definition of treason. It was his secret orders to Fleet Admiral Tsang that were treasonous. They were a direct countermanding of Kolokoltsov's orders to him.

A Rising Thunder Chapter 27 wrote:“And Rajani still hasn’t managed to get Imogene Tsang to Old Chicago where we could ask her exactly what her orders in Beowulf were, either, has he?” Quartermain observed. She glanced at Kolokoltsov from the corner of one eye. “She was a hell of a lot more confrontational than she was supposed to be. I can’t help wondering if maybe her instructions—and Filareta’s—might not have included a couple of clauses we didn’t know about.”
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